Government’s approach to high fuel prices ‘completely wrong’

My local tesco petrol is 95.9 100.9

Compared to Summer 08 117.9 131.9

A very few powerful individuals have ripped the heart out of the world economy and there is nothing we can do about it. They are beyond our reach. All the moaning about politicians is just a side show.

If there was any justice an international court would be convened and these guilty people would be made to stand trial ,for be of no doubt that many will suffer because of thier greed and in poor countries many will starve.

These people are living in splendid luxury and laughing at the ordinary men and women of the world who toil daily to survive.

while we have politicians only out for themselves we have no hope for this country, greed greed &more greed.why don,t the media start banging on about the high pump prices when the price of crude oil is where it is now.

I remember watching the break up and collapse of the former USSR and thinking well thats a once in a lifetime event but we seem to be sitting here watching the system that was suppose to be the victor in total meltdown.
Who could have immagined that the mighty US economy could be reduced to a shambles that threatens the whole world and the livelihood of each and every one of us. This is what happens when old men go off to war and ignore events at home. God help us all fuel prices are insignificant compared to what we all face in the very near future.

Only in the UK!!!!

The price of oil is now $92 a barrel (from $150)... and guess what? The price of petrol and diesel where I live in Lincolnshire has GONE UP by 1p and in some cases 2p!!!

Will the last person leaving please turn out the lights?

Can Mr Brown please explain what is happening - the price of crude oil is down to $100 a barrel but the price at the pumps is still rising?

i would like to reverse back to point 241 and suggest that the reason for high taxation is to pay for these wars! Secondly Britain was once a very powerful nation probabally because we had ships and inventive people but now the power nations are the ones with FUEL or access to it. Thirdly Tony Blaire has sold us down the river to brussles so we are now pretty much governed by them. The ironic thing is it wont be global warming that destroys our earth it will wars between power hungry countries. While im here i just like to my veiw on the goverment is that they are the biggest con artist in the uk and you think we live in a democracy........yeah right!!

Looking objectively at the governments arguement regarding taxation being environmentally geared is flawed. First, a cow produces more co2 emmissions than the average modern motor car a fact scientists keep making, secondly, its the easiest way of levying taxation on the population as the vast majority of the adult public own or drive at least one vehicle and raising personal income tax would not acheive the massive amounts gained by the chosen system. Third, there has been no consideration by elected members of our government towards the poorer sections of society including those with disabilities that rely on vehicles for their independence. Fourth, a friend recently returned from the USA where the average price of a GALLON of 4 star was £1.80p 4 times less than we pay???? Whats more clothing, food, accomodation and general levels of everyday taxes were far below those that our small nation is required to pay. Fifth, it is alright if your income is £150,000 per annum as most of our political ruling classes are, however, most working class families have to survive on £20,000 per annum or less......no need for a maths class here. There is no doubt a large and now growing larger gap between the poor in our society and the rich. Where has it bothered anyone on six figure sums when fuel or goods increase? I am not in anyway right wing by nature, however, there does not seem to be a polotician in westminister listening or prepared to do the right thing and over-hall these tax systems to reflect a more balanced society.

I'm surprised the oil companies didn't tell Gordon Brown where to go.
You drop the tax, we will produce more fuel.

Re 241

Yes that really is the way to go.

It just isn't fair that OUR oil is under THEIR sand is it?

Re 241
Yeah way to go
But wouldn't that make us as bad and as despotic as Saddam himself?
Oil is running out we've used MORE than we've got left which might turn
out to be a good thing, just think of it whats the point of fighting/invading for something that no longer exists? Will we descend into anarchy or will there be
peace on Earth?, sadly given human history I fear the former will be the case
but we can live in hope.

I think that the high petrol and diesel prices at our pumps is a scandal, its crazy! Why have we spent billions of pounds taking over Iraq? Iraq has plenty of oil, surely we have a right to some of it at a reduced price or even for free? Or is it a case that we help out the Americans for no return as usual??

@226:

"The "Stone Age" didn't end because we ran out of stone.
The "Iron Age" didn't end because we ran out of iron.
The "Steam Age" didn't end because we ran out if steam (coal)."

In each of those instances, humans found something better to take their place. This time, all of the alternatives to oil are not as good, and the dieoff.org synopsis beckons.

Re: 238

Good idea Greg and for those of you who can't be bothered to look it up:

THE OIL DEPLETION PROTOCOL

WHEREAS the passage of history has recorded an increasing pace of change, such that the demand for energy has grown rapidly in parallel with the world population over the past two hundred years since the Industrial Revolution;

WHEREAS the energy supply required by the population has come mainly from coal and petroleum, such resources having been formed but rarely in the geological past and being inevitably subject to depletion;

WHEREAS oil provides ninety percent of transport fuel, is essential to trade, and plays a critical role in the agriculture needed to feed the expanding population;

WHEREAS oil is unevenly distributed on the Planet for well-understood geological reasons, with much being concentrated in five countries bordering the Persian Gulf;

WHEREAS all the major productive provinces of the World have been identified with the help of advanced technology and growing geological knowledge, it being now evident that discovery reached a peak in the 1960s, despite technological progress and a diligent search;

WHEREAS the past peak of discovery inevitably leads to a corresponding peak in production during the first decade of the 21st Century, assuming no radical decline in demand;

WHEREAS the onset of the decline of this critical resource affects all aspects of modern life, such having grave political and geopolitical implications;

WHEREAS it is expedient to plan an orderly transition to the new World environment of reduced energy supply, making early provisions to avoid the waste of energy, stimulate the entry of substitute energies, and extend the life of the remaining oil;

WHEREAS it is desirable to meet the challenges so arising in a co-operative and equitable manner, such to address related climate change concerns, economic and financial stability, and the threats of conflicts for access to critical resources.

NOW IT IS PROPOSED THAT

A convention of nations shall be called to consider the issue with a view to agreeing an Accord with the following objectives:
• to avoid profiteering from shortage, such that oil prices may remain in reasonable relationship with production cost;
• to allow poor countries to afford their imports;
• to avoid destabilizing financial flows arising from excessive oil prices;
• to encourage consumers to avoid waste;
• to stimulate the development of alternative energies.

Such an Accord shall have the following outline provisions:
• The world and every nation shall aim to reduce oil consumption by at least the world depletion rate.
• No country shall produce oil at above its present depletion rate.
• No country shall import at above the world depletion rate.
• The depletion rate is defined as annual production as a percent of what is left (reserves plus yet-to-find).
• The preceding provisions refer to regular conventional oil—which category excludes heavy oils with cut-off of 17.5 API, deepwater oil with a cut-off of 500 meters, polar oil, gas liquids from gas fields, tar sands, oil shale, oil from coal, biofuels such as ethanol, etc.

Detailed provisions shall cover the definition of the several categories of oil, exemptions and qualifications, and the scientific procedures for the estimation of Depletion Rate.

The signatory countries shall cooperate in providing information on their reserves, allowing full technical audit, such that the Depletion Rate may be accurately determined.

The signatory countries shall have the right to appeal their assessed Depletion Rate in the event of changed circumstances.

Re: 238

Yep. That is about the long and short of it.
Perhaps we shall yet see a country in a situation such as ours start spouting 'The Oil Depletion Protocol'. Now that the tables are turned, it would make sense to do so.
The 'make sense to do so' part of the above sentence will probably ensure that it won't happen.
If anyone is curious, google The Oil Depletion Protocol.

Anyone talked about the shrinking oil export market yet?

This will really scare you!

In the oil game, there are oil exporting countries and oil importing countries.

The former are countries that produce more oil than they use, so they export the rest to the oil importing countries.

Oil importing countries use more oil than they produce themselves so they import from the oil exporting countries.

Thats cleared that up.

Now unfortunately, the amount of oil being used by oil exporting countries is growing rapidly, which leaves less for export.

This hasnt been a problem in the past as oil production was just increased to compensate for the increase in demand within the oil exporting countries.

But now production increases have stalled, demand from with oil exporting countries is "catching up" overall production in oil exporting countries.

Lets look at a couple of examples, Russia and Saudi Arabia who represent circa 30 - 40% of oil exported to oil importing countries.

Fortunately the numbers are similiar for both countries.

SA and Russia both produce 10 million barrels per day.

SA and Russia both use roughly 2.0 million barrels per day

This leaves a total of 8 million barrels per day for export from SA and Russia.

Unfortunately demand within SA and Russia is increasing at 10% per annum, where as production has hit a wall in both countries.

At 10% per year, the exports from these two countries alone shrink by AT LEAST 400,000 barrels per day EVERY YEAR.

Of course in year 1, 10% of 4.0 million barrels (combined demand from SA and Russia) is 400,000 barrels less for export. But in year 2 its 10% of 4.4 million barrels which is 440,000 barrels etc etc.

So the amount available for export not only shrinks as they years go by, the rate of exports falls by a faster rate as the years go by.

Unfortunately the internal demand growth of most oil exporting nations are in a similiar position to Russia and SA.

A good historical example is the UK.

In 1999 we produced 3 million barrels per day and used 1.8 million. We therefore exported 1.2 million barrels per day.

In 2007 we produced 1.8 million barrels per day and consumed 1.8 million barrels per day and so net exports were ZERO.

Within 8 years the UK went from 6th largest exporter of oil to and oil IMPORTER.

Oil exporting countries are getting rich, rich people use more oil. If they use more of their own oil - there is less for the likes of the UK to import....

I dont like it - and I also think fuel duty is too high and unfair- but it all seems irrelevant now...

Greg Brown & Peak Oil

To everybody out there.
I too was sceptical but listening to these guys and following their leads put me on the right track.
Read, understand and believe what they tell you.
They know their stuff.
I'm sorry I ever doubted you guys.

Sandy, you might also consider 'googling' the following wikibook:

Peak Oil: High Tide for an Oil Addicted World

See you on the other side. ;-)

Sorry to be so 'full on' Sandy but I happen to believe that Peak Oil is THE most important crisis to ever face mankind.

Other UK web sites worth visiting are 'Powerswitch' and 'Wolfatthedoor'.

The Wikipedia entry on Peak Oil is also very informative.

Greg Brown
I have just googled Olduvai.
Absolutely fantastic I'm now with you.
Full apologies.
I'm hungry for everything in a similar vain.

Hmm
Nothing to do with the powers that be but deafeningly silent about
condemning them for being bankrupt and still finding money for allowances
when they can't find it to ease the burden on everything that moves by road.
Read an interesting thing on ITV teletext letters today:-
New Labour
Tough on the motorists tough on the needs of the motorists.
Just about sums it up.

Re 229

PS. Some of these catastrophes ARE coming to pass. Try living in a few other areas of the planet that don't enjoy the cushions we do here.

Re 229

That's a cracker, connected to TPTB. The PO message is the very last thing they want broadcasting. Stability comes from Business As Usual, not Peak Oil information.
PO & G B (me) have never met other than here, where we happen to agree upon a few things.

Start with something simple, like google 'The Oil Drum Europe'. There are links off that. Or you could google 'Olduvai'.

Failing you doing that, look into my eyes, look into my eyes, hang on no, don't. That was close, I was about to brainwash you.

Hi everybody
I'm fairly new to these blogs and have to say that I'm trying very hard to remain neutral with all the comments I've been reading but I'm finding it difficult with all that I've read to believe that Greg Brown & Peak Oil are not one and the same person.He/they will not deviate from their own beliefs and seem only too happy to pump their views down everybody elses throat and they are of a mindset that when they are right they are right and when they are wrong they are right. It's one thing airing your views but quite another when you try to bully everybody else into your way of thinking.
My opinion and it is my opinion only I am not full on in anybody's face, is that we're victims of a propaganda war with "peak oil" this and "peak oil" that and
"climate change" this and "climate change" that and "global warming" this and "global warming" that for goodness sake play a different tune!
In the 1970's we were told to prepare for a new "ice age".
In the '80's it was a hole in the ozone layer.
In the late '90's and early noughties massive drought was guaranteed and
we would have to pump water from north to south as we became tropical.
One of Greg Browns favourite sayings is to "do the research" so perhaps he can enlighten me with the extensive means at his disposal to do the research
why none of these catastrophe's ever came to pass and why we should not
be left to draw our own conclusions from his incessant rants about peak oil.
Everything we buy in the shops got there on the back of a lorry and if it's costing the hauliers 30% more for their fuel now compared to last year then they have to pass the increases on to the shops who then pass it on to the consumer. Now you can paint it as many different colours as you like and you can call it any name you want but the simple fact is 70% of the cost of fuel at the pumps is made up of taxes and I don't know how many times I've read from G.B et al that the government can't afford to reduce fuel duty because the country is bankrupt yet they seem more than able to find and fund their
expenses allowances without any trouble at all. I can't help but wonder if G.B & P.O are some how connected to the powers that be and are trying to brainwash us into their way of thinking after all if you tell the same story long
enough then people will start to believe it because if they see it in writing then it must be true.

In case any of you are still in doubt about the fragility of our future energy supplies, you might like to 'google' the following report from Channel 4 News today.

'Centrica report warns UK gas prices could soar by 70 per cent'.

Still think we haven't got a problem? Still think it's the government's fault?

Wise up! We're already in the brown stuff.

For the terminally bewildered amongst you I repeat:

The time is now to start thinking about and making changes to the way you live so your life is not so oil-centered.

Remember that a lack of oil and gas extends far beyond not being able to drive your car or heat your home - so many other products, services and industries are based on oil.

Start preparing for a life of austerity. NOW!

Find local employment. Reduce your debts. Reduce your fuel consumption. Grow your own vegetables or buy from local suppliers. Exercise regularly. Insulate your home. Help your family, friends and colleagues to understand the implications of Peak Oil.

Got it? ;-)

Re: 226

Interesting post Unwin. There's only one problem.

As you rightly claim, this country (and the West in general) is indeed bankrupt.

This being the case, where do you suggest that the finance required to fund the 'new technology' R&D is going to come from?

In case you missed an episode, governments and corporations are currently bending under the strain. No money there then!

As for hydrogen ever being a viable replacement for oil, think again.

The following information from the 'Wolf At The Door' web site might help to clear up any further confusion:

First of all, hydrogen is not a fuel such as oil, coal or electricity; it is an energy carrier, rather like a battery. Although hydrogen is the commonest substance in the Universe, it does not exist as a free gas or liquid on Earth so it has to be produced. For this you need two things, a hydrogen source (akin to a metal’s ore) and an energy source to separate the gas. It is this energy source that is one of the major problems with hydrogen: the hydrogen-powered fuel cell in your car might appear to produce no pollutants but did the original energy needed to fill the cell?

As mentioned, hydrogen creation needs a hydrogen source and an energy source. At the moment, most hydrogen is produced from natural gas which acts as both sources. Unfortunately, because something is lost whenever one form of energy is converted to another, the hydrogen produced has only 50% of the energy value of the original gas. And, since the problem we are facing is the depletion of fossil fuels, using gas to create hydrogen does not seem very sensible.

The alternative to this is to use electricity to split water into hydrogen and oxygen. If that electricity comes from fossil-fuel powered generators, then we are no better off that the system above. But if the source of the electricity is from renewables or nuclear, then we have the potential for a cleaner fuel for transportation. Unfortunately much energy is lost in the process, so the hydrogen that comes out has about 70% of the original electricity.

Hydrogen is 2700 times less energy dense than petrol so it needs to be reduced in size before storage and distribution. There are three ways of doing this: compression, liquefaction and chemical-combination.

* Hydrogen is the hardest gas to compress and the efficiency is about 55%. It requires extremely strong and heavy tanks to store.
* Liquefaction is better in that it does not need such heavy tanks (although it still takes up three times the volume compared with petrol) but its efficiency is about 40% at best. Also, some liquid hydrogen inevitably escapes from storage at the rate 3-4% a day for cars, so every minute that you were not driving your car would be costing you money in lost fuel.
* Chemical-combination means mixing the gas together with metal hydrides which act as a sort of sponge. The efficiency is about 60% to produce the hydrides without taking into account the losses from producing the initial electricity.

Delivery of both compressed and liquefied hydrogen would be troublesome. If by road, it would require 13% more tankers so about 1 in 7 lorry accidents would,on average, involve a tanker. If using pipelines, it would take 1.5 times more energy to transfer hydrogen 3,000 km then is contained in the gas itself.

The principal hope for hydrogen is that it will be a replacement for oil as a fuel for transportation. But, compared to electricity, it generally loses out in most areas.

* In production, it is a clear loser since we would have to create that electricity to produce the hydrogen in the first place. If you are generating electricity, it is better to use it directly and make better use of the 30% that is lost to separate the hydrogen.
* For distribution, electricity has one of the most efficient methods of energy transfer known – up to 90% efficiency. Whatever method you use to transfer power through hydrogen, the efficiency is likely to drop to about 30%. The infrastructure for electricity transfer already exists while that for hydrogen is, at the moment, almost non-existent. The systems for creation, storage, transfer and supply (to users) would have to be built virtually from scratch over the next couple of decades, enough to cover whole countries.

As far as motor transport is concerned, while we have relatively cheap fossil fuels, the best option would be to use hybrids (vehicles equipped with both internal combustion engines and electric motors) for cars and lorries to reduce the oil used and extend its useful life, while using pure electric vehicles such as trams and trains for mass transport. By the time we have run out of available oil and gas, we are likely to be so short of electric power that we could not afford any unnecessary wastage.


You are, of course, quite right when you claim that 'mankind as a whole has advanced further in the last 50 years than it ever did in the previous 5000 years'.

How did we do it?

BY USING A CHEAP AND AVAILABLE SOURCE OF ENERGY CALLED OIL.

Low cost energy is EVEYTHING to a modern economy and with reducing flow rates, all we can look forward to is economic decline.

Peak Oil is no longer a theory. Most governments and oil producing companies are now openly admitting to the fact that they can't meet the current and growing demand for oil.

Forget your grandiose schemes for the future. They won't happen. Period. I'd suggest that you start considering what CAN be done at a local level.

Put a little time and effort into reading about sustainable local energy and food production schemes.

Above all I'd suggest you start to think about what you and your family will require 'post peak'. The future is starting to unfold at an alarming rate.

Denial and apathy won't provide food and warmth when TSHTF.

225
I like the way you think and the country is indeed bankrupt, the govenment and the main opposition parties are all doing their best to fill their boots now.
Your view "consume less get rid of debt "etc seems to suggest that we revert back to the old feudal system whereby we are born in a feild to surfs live in a barn with the lord and masters cows and pigs and die at the ripe old age of 35.ooh ahh ooh ahh.
To mention something again from earlier in these blogs :-
The "Ice Age" didn't end because we ran out of ice. Nature decreed it's end.
The "Stone Age" didn't end because we ran out of stone.
The "Iron Age" didn't end because we ran out of iron.
The "Steam Age" didn't end because we ran out if steam (coal).
And despite all the claims for peak oil the oil age will not end because we'll
have run out. In the first instance it will price itself out of the market (hard to believe I know with the worlds' un-erring reliance on it) but trust me on this
King oils reign will be over before the end of the next decade.
Every day new ideas,new innovations new technologies are coming forward,
the hydrogen car is no longer a dream it has become a reality, granted its
expensive and, at the moment there is a safety issue with it but, if you think about it, the first video recorders in the mid 1970's were £700. or more
and the DVD players were £1000. initially yet, now you can buy either for less than £20. The cost of any newly invented product on the market is always very expensive but as manufacturers improve development and production techniques they become more afforable and the reason oil is as expensive as it has become is simply because the oil producers have realised that "the end is nigh" for them.They want the bun, the cream and the jam before it's too late.
In less than 15-20 years we will have a situation where oil will once again be next to worthless because it will have been replaced by far superior more affordable cleaner energy and this is not wishfull thinking on my part because when you consider that mankind as a whole has advanced further in the last 50 years than it ever did in the previous 5000 years you will see I'm right.
Computers for instance had you ever used one just 20 years ago? I hadn't
yet today if we lost them all, mankind would descend into the dark ages never to recover. Can you name one thing that we use today that doesn't have or doesn't need a computer yet in a short span of 20 years
we simply couldn't survive without them. Frightening isn't it.
To finish on a more cynical note I believe that man will be the engineer of his own distruction and before you think it I do not subscribe to the friends of the earth or the green parties or indeed any party but as we all know only too well once we've sqeezed the pip and pith out of the orange there's little else left and we have been squeezed to the limit already and the Earth even further than that.

224.

What you say is quite true, however, the UK is bankrupt, with no way out, you might want to google the term 'fiat money' to see how that happened. HMG are going to grab what they can, whenever and however they can.
We are entering an economic state in which growth will cease over the next few years, contraction will follow.
As for red diesel, it is to be discontinued in September, that little loophole will be closed, but just imagine what that will do for food prices when farmers start paying full whack to run their tractors!
Stability in the market is not going to be restored - drop the duty and rising prices will take care of that pronto, though I expect there will be a 'sawtooth' effect on the downslope of oil production/demand problem.
The underlying problem is that there is an energy crisis on all fronts, the UK is going to lose an enormous amount of electricity generating capacity over the next couple of years as power stations reach the end of their working lives, and new ones are not there to replace them. The North Sea is in steep decline. World oil production seems to have peaked in 2005 (North Sea 1999).
Plentiful, cheap energy gave us this civilization, it was never technology, draw your own conclusion as to what happens when cheap, plentiful energy sources are no longer cheap, or plentiful.
It's a rough ride coming up alright, petrol prices at the pump is not all we have to worry about.
At which point everybody jumps in, calls me a miserable git and where are your solutions? Hmmm, let me see, consume less, get rid of debt, consider digging up the driveway for a veg patch, get a job within walking distance or work from home. Really sorry for anyone just beginning to realise all this is about to hit, nothing more to say really except don't be one of these people:

' The implication of sheeple is that as a collective, people believe whatever they are told, especially if told so by authority figures, without processing it to be sure that it is an accurate representation of the real world around them.'

Investigate, the truth makes you free or some such thing, probably removes the feeling of bewilderment about what is happening is more like it.

Greg Brown
I hear what you say and maybe there is no going back to cheap fuel
but I feel that you must agree with me that a fairer tax system should be implemented. When our Darling made his budget he assumed oil would be at or around 85 dollars per barrel and worked his projected yearly figures on this price but now that oil is 140+ dollars per barrel and he's raking in 25 pence per litre more than he ever accounted for surely he could introduce the "fuel duty regulator" and stablise the fuel prices so that we all know where we are and then as prices ramained reasonably constant day to day week to week some degree of normality might ensue. I am not against the hauliers having a cut in the amount of fuel duty they have to pay because obviously increased fuel costs to them works all the way down the line as we've all noticed the goods in the shops have shot up at an unprecidented rate this year, however how would we stop the tiny minority of lorry drivers running their cars on reduced duty fuel from their lorry tanks (and please don't tell me that this doesn't happen I'm not naive and neither are you) coloured diesel might be the answer.As you've no doubt heard the other Mr G.Brown has today announced that the 2p increase to fuel duty planned for October will not now go ahead maybe he's running scared I don't think 2p is going to save his neck and as for the other parties I'm afraid it's more of the same.
Anyway I've gone on long enough the point I am making is that fuel duty must be more flexible i.e when oil prices rise fuel duty MUST come down
and vice versa then and only then stability and maybe growth in the market will be restored.

Re:222

Erm, no to under the counter deals, and complacency.

It is beginning to sink in that there is no going back to cheap fuel - ever.

From 220 in case you missed it:

REDUCING FLOW RATES + INCREASING GLOBAL DEMAND = GLOBAL SHORTAGES + ESCALATING PRICES

Has anybody else noticed that the fuel duty protests seemed to have died the death. Have the hauliers been given an under the counter deal and told to keep quiet about it? or is it that the majority of motorists have become complacent.
If that's the case we really do deserve to pay £2.00,£3.00, £4.00 or even £5.00
per litre for our fuel.

In the interests of the country I think we should stop protesting about these increases. I will happily pay an extra £200 road tax, if it guarantees a NuLab wipeout at the next election.

Re: 218

Paul, the problem isn't about how much oil is left globally but about how the oil producing countries are failing to meet demand.

REDUCING FLOW RATES + INCREASING GLOBAL DEMAND = GLOBAL SHORTAGES + ESCALATING PRICES

If you need an 'official' source of information, try the International Energy Authority. The following article was published in the Financial Times on the 1st July 2008:

ft.com/cms/s/0/cd683aa0-4764-11dd-93ca-000077b07658.html?nclick_check=1