18.12.07 Why did the fuel protests run out of steam?
The fuel protests organised by pressure group Transaction 2007 this weekend failed to gather the support they needed to make the protests a success. The group had hoped that supporters would gather at fuel refineries and depots across the country on Saturday morning (15.12.07) in order to force rising fuel costs back onto the political agenda. However, the turnout was poor – only one pensioner turned up to protest at Purfleet in Essex. The most successful site was Fawley in Southampton, which attracted 25 protesters.
But the poor turnout appeared to take Transaction 2007 by surprise. After releasing their initial statement on Sunday evening (09.12.07) the number of members on their web forum more than doubled. Throughout the week there was a steady stream of media coverage from the BBC, The Guardian and various local newspapers and radio stations. Polls on our website showed that 18,815 people supported the protests, and 310 people said they were going to join in at their local refinery. But these votes did not turn into material support, and the protests were called off at around 10.30am.
So why did the protests run out of steam? It seems there were a combination of factors, which on their own may not have had the same effect, but together, effectively stopped the protests in their tracks. First, the whole event lacked clear structure and support. Up until the day before the only way to find out that was going on was to join Transaction's forum, and search through to find information on your local refinery. Even then, the group gave very little indication of what would-be protesters would be doing when they got to their nearest site – there were disparities between the action some members wanted to take, and what constitutes a legal protest. It also wasn't clear what the protest hoped to achieve, which was exacerbated by the fact that Transaction refused to talk to the media until the day before.
Secondly, the timing of the protests may have contributed towards the mediocre response from the public. Transaction decided to hold it at the weekend to enable lorry drivers to attend, who might be working during the week. But, so close to Christmas, it's possible that any motorists who might ordinarily have joined them decided to go Christmas shopping instead. The frosty weather can't have helped either – nobody likes standing around in the cold.
Thirdly, the decision to target fuel refineries and depots may have been unwise. Although rising oil prices have contributed to the current pump prices, the tax on fuel is equally, if not more, to blame. We pay roughly two thirds in tax on fuel, which can be broken down to duty and VAT (for more information on this have a look at our fuel tax page). Duty is a fixed tax, but VAT is a percentage, so as petrol prices rise due to rising oil prices, so does the amount of VAT we pay. Many of the comments on our blog have suggested that it is the government who need lobbying, not the petrol industry.
Finally, although the evidence points to widespread discontent over current UK petrol prices, it seems that discontent is outweighed by apathy. Our blog comments repeatedly said that protesting and petitioning are unlikely to result in lower oil prices or a tax cut. And the number of active protesters on Saturday spoke volumes – many people might think petrol prices are too high, a percentage of those are angry enough to voice their opinion on the web, but ultimately the number of people who think that exercising their democratic right to protest is worthwhile, is not substantial. This may be representative of political apathy in the UK in general, or it could simply be the conditions weren't right for the protest at the minute. Either way, Transaction 2007 will have to think hard to find a way to stay within the law and still manage to engage the public and the media in the same way as the more memorable protests of 2000.
Why do you think the protests failed? Would you support protest action in the future? Let us know your thoughts.
Your Comments
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It's hardly surprising these protests came to nothing.
Firstly I think the success of the 2000 fuel protests was partly due to the panic buying that ensued. This in its own right caused the fuel shortages, and it was to the insane degree where people were storing fuel in containers, being rationed and emergency services being given priority.
Would the media be allowed to report freely on such matters and stir up a fuss in the first place? I suspect they would be cautious, if only to save getting egg on their face as it were. This coupled with the fact that I only heard about the protest through PetrolBusters, and lets face it, PetrolBusters is not the UK's number one source of news. How were people supposed to find out?
The there was Transaction's reasons for the protest, the tax, not the cost of oil. So why protest outside a refinery? The government is responsible for the tax, not the refinery. Why not protest outside 10 Downing Street, where everyone would be together instead of being divided across numerous oil refineries up and down the country. (And does anyone remember Buncefield? Would you want to be stood hanging about such places?)
When I think back to 2000, the most memorable thing for me was the fuel shortage, not the slow protests on the motorways, or the blockades at the refineries. Who wants to be in a similar position just before and during Christmas? People need to get to shops, visit friends, families etc
Then we have to consider the measurements the government put in place in the aftermath of 2000, things like the potential of losing your driving licence. How many truck drivers would be thrilled at the idea of losing their livelihood's?
And finally, there is the fact that we are seven years on, we're seven years more dependable on our cars.
Good article, so what are petrolprices.com going to do ?
... or are they just in the business of allowing shoddy Murco forecourt owners of putting through fake fuelcard transac tions in order to be placed on the top of several towns lists? I have complained to the company and only got some girl on the line who was just trying to keep me on the line as petrolprices.com make money from the phone number. I am hoping that trading standards will be more helpful.
Petrolprices.com perpetuates fraud and articles like this are not meant to be showing genuine concern for the motorist, it is simply trying to capitalise on the recent interest in protest - or why have 3 blogs on the subject?
As we explained to you when you called last week, PetrolPrices.com buys the petrol prices data we supply to you free of charge from another company. We receive information on over 8,000 UK petrol stations on a regular basis, and as I'm sure you can appreciate with such a large amount of data, it is possible for mistakes to be made. We endeavor to ensure that mistakes are corrected promptly - since your call we have raised the issue with the data company, who assure us they are investigating the situation.
PetrolPrices.com consistently strives to highlight, analyse and provide a discussion place for motoring related issues and motorists. We reject the idea that we are “capitalising” on the current situation - we felt that the fuel protests were significant enough to bring to the attention of the PetrolPrices community, and we will continue provide news and commentary to the motorists who use our site.
Should you wish to discuss this further, or contact us at any point in the future, please use our Contact page. This has free contact options, which means that we will be able to respond more appropriately to your queries.
Kind regards,
PetrolPrices.com
The latest fuel protest, and why it ran out of steam, the first I heard about it was when it was all over, there was a hint that it might happen, that all, I asked many people, as myself they knew nothing, what is wrong with the people of this country now, if this was France, MR brown would have a different point of view, he knows very well most will just grin and moan about it, the great has gone from what used to be a Great country, if I was alot younger there's no way I would stay in the country where generations of my family were born, and the wonderful country that my father fought for, which has now been given away at a stroke of a pen, yuk
The message as I understood it was that Transaction 2007 was protesting themselves, and that there would be something bigger that they needed help with in the New Year. We're here and ready to fight, but we need to know what's needed.
With reports of 10,000 truckdrivers lending their support, perhaps they didn't feel needed!
To say this protest was ill conceived and even less well planned is an understatement !
I agree with most of the comments, but the weather may have played a part in the lack of support - and also, people are unlikely to turn out so near Christmas, with 101 things to do! I think the whole thing was misjudged - how sad, when motorists need so much support.
Maybe there's a growing realization about the future. Although we'd love low prices this protest coincided with the breakthrough agreement on climate change at the Bali Conference and our responsibility to the planet. China & India are also set to start consuming oil and a breathtaking rate so the black stuff is going to be in an ever decreasing supply. Moving so much freight by road has to be re-thought as well, if only to ensure I can squeeze by the truck in the middle lane going at 55 MPH overtaking the one on the inside lane going at 54 MPH
Personally, I'd love to be able to reclaim the VAT on my fuel too, that'd make it cheaper. Sorry, am I being facetious.
The protests of 2000 were widely publised and people were given plenty of notice to get rev'ed up for it. Its no wonder that the turn out was pure. UK public will only react to something that is pushed under their nose time and time again!
If anything "big" is to happen early next year, then i would recommend publising it to the masses. Let the uk know about it. People will repsond if given enough notice!
Why don't we users of fuel boycott one of the major suppliers i.e. Shell, BP, Esso, Texaco; for one month? Can you imagine the level of surplus/unsold fuel they would have? Surely this would make them reduce the price to get rid of it, the others would have to follow suit or risk having surplus stock as well!
People don't stick together anymore. Everybody moans about the price of fuel but nobody does anything about it ! people planning protests can't do anything there full of s**t. You need a mass support of people before you attempt to take on anyone. In this day an age people just take whats given to them i.e fuel prices. it's too much out of there time to talk about the price of fuel because most of them can afford it and if you can't like me you have to deal with it. Or walk !! thats how i see it.
Andy
What do you guys think wil actually happen? If the protests are succesful what do you think is going to really happen? Theyre gonna knock 10p off the price of fuel? Of course not, like they did in 2000, theyll prob. (if forced) knock 1p off and then 1 month down the line raise back up 1p again. wow were back where we started. Best think to do is buy the low litre cars, 1.0, 1.2, 1.3 cars. anything above that and your going to make trips alot to fuel station. ive just bought a cat. c renault clio 1.2 s reg, and i put 10 quid of petrol in at 99.9p and i got 90 miles out of it.
Clearly who ever wrote on post 12 has more than 2 children and all fit SAFELY and confortably in his 1.2 and don't forget about bags and other stuff that the boot is clearly big enough for.
Its because people are all moans and no action that the fuel prices will keep on rising. Perhaps the best thing to do is for the skilled workers to migrate and leave all the goodie green shoes to pay up and watch all the smog from other countries blow into this one.
To be realistic there is no way this gov will reduce the price of fuel. We all know everything is a business these days. But what they should do is make diesel cheaper than petrol. That would be a good starting point
Ref the suggestion in 13 to make diesel cheaper than petrol, as it is in most if not all other European countries. That would be nice but don't tempt the government Joe, they'd just increase the tax on petrol so that it was more expensive than diesel!
I think petrol prices should rise as high and as quickly as possible to force off the road all but essential road users, or those who agree to share their car, or put the car into a car pool.
The higher the petrol cost, the less people will use their cars for short, non-essential journeys, taking a healthy walk, buying a bike and using it, using the buses etc etc.
The sight of all these traffic jams with poor folk sitting there fuming as much as their cars, angry, fed up... and so often just one person per car? It is senseless and mindless....
So... let the prices rise... the Government are doing the planet a great service.
Barry
To post 15
Are you completely insane? Are you perhaps a member of the communist party? The UK government can drag the keys to my V8 from my cold dead hands.
You'll never force me to sit on the bus next to a tramp instead of wafting in air-conditioned comfort.
For many people there's also a lot more to cars than getting from once place to another. Some people actually enjoy driving!
16: The government won't have to. The laws of geology will. It's a zero sum game now. Whether the government prices you out of your V8 or the rest of the world does is academic. You're going to give it up sooner or later.
Welcome to the wonders of perpetual growth in a finite world.
Actually the v8 has a point. As far as I know cars have been designed to be driven. Just like you enjoy walks he enjoys drives. Is it really fair to punish him for that?
Everyone is doing their best to do their part for the environment but surely we can still have some fun.
We all know fireworks cause pollution but we do not here you complaining about it, smoking is polluting the air as well, etc...
To 15 - have you ever tried travelling by bus to anywhere other than the centre of your nearest town?
Go ahead - try it. Then see if the couple of hours (each way) travelling on a bus for a journey that'd take 20mins by car is worth it.
I'm not *anti-bus* - I use the bus to get to the centre of the nearest town, when that is where I'm going - but the other 95% of the time, the bus just won't take me to where I need to be in a sensible amount of time.
I'm anti-bus, I used to drive the things for a living and I've seen some very scarey things.
You'll never catch me on one again.
As for the fuel protest? ...well, it was baddly organised and advertised and I don't think anyone beyond people like us understand that it's the tax element thats causing fuel to be so expensive. The governments propaganda mill seems to be doing a great job of fooling joe public en masse that it's the high price of a barrel causing it.
Expect cynical tax cuts in 2009 or 2010 when Gordy is up for re election, because we'll have all forgotten about being extorted now to pay for them.
Lets just hope the economy holds out, or the 1.8 million unemployed may have doubled or possibly trebled come election time.
Bad government in a bad time, Labours popularity came after a rubbish Tory party and a world wide upturn in prosperity, it had little to do with the mad jock.
As for peak oil, even the directors of the oil companies don't give that much credence, the easy oil is running out, but a substantial resource of bio carbons is still available and would still be less expensive to the end user than fuel is now, if the governments rip off fuel duty were abolished.
Bad days ahead me thinks!
Bad days ahead me thinks.
I didn't know the protest was happening until the morning of the "event", but to plan a protest on the penltimate saturday before christmas is insane.
Next time, tell us what to do, where to go, tell the world we've had enough, the French tell they world when they are going to stike so why not tell the UK?
I'm more than happy to join in next time as long as I get a clue in advance
Reading the posts here has amazed me.
It has amzed me how self righteous the people who wish us out of our cars are. Anyone who seriously belives that by stopping using our cars will cure our planets problems is much misguided. The only way to help this planet is to reduce the population by restricting benefits for children such as in China.
Cars have not damaged this planet siglehandedly get over it.
I also thing that it is disgusting that some people belive that they have the right to tell others what to do. This is a free country (I think) so if you wish to drive, then do so, if you wish to walk, then do so.
Our lives have built up around transport. but mistakes have been made. Freight should be on the railways, but they can not cope with passengers let alone freight as well. Privitisation put paid to them.
Buses are a public joke. Expensive, dirty, smelly horrible things. But it was not like that when it was publicly owned.
With bus routes not serving the public and work places change often in todays hire and fire world, is it any wonder that we have to rely on the car.
I do however think that we should use the car resposibly. If you are making a journey of a mile or less, do you really need to drive. Should we ask ourselves, do our children need to go to a school that requires a car journey or should they attend one within walking distance. Just stop and think before getting behind the wheel. I actually do.
Just because some of us can walk and keep our lives local, does not mean that everyone can. We should not scald those who can not, but ensure that we do what we can to help where we can.
The most saddening thing that I see with this high taxation on fuel, is that it effects evey one of the 60 million people who live in this country, as the cost goes straight onto our food at the supermarket. It also goes on everything else we buy as well.
So far I have not ever come accross a person who is TOTALLY self sufficient. Therefore evey person in this country has a vested intrest to see lower tax on ALL fuels. Yet so few can be bothered to do anything about it.
Eventually this tax will see people lose their jobs and then houses through not being able to pay the mortgage. It will split familes that live apart across the country, and eventully the economy will unravel before our very eyes.
All because we could not be bothered to do something about it now. I wonder what would of happend 60 years ago if the people of this country had taken the same attitude as us in the second world war. Everyone of us reading this, including me, should pause and feel ashamed of ourselves.
Want to pay less petrol tax? Drive less. Better than taking a pay cut to pay less income tax... or how else do you want our schools and hospitals paid for?
Dan (23) easy for you to say, some of us either drive or become unemployed.
As far as taxation is concerned, your post is absurd. No one would complain about taxation if it were being spent by a competant government.
But then, if we had competant government, tax wouldn't be so high and we wouldn't be complaining about it to start with.
Deforestation is 80% of the reason for global warming, the oceans release the bulk of the remaining 20% along with volcanoes and cows farting, cars are the least of our worries. So instead of you greenies complaining about the internal combustion engine, stop wasting electricity on your computer posting spiteful little comments about things you clearly don't understand and go plant a tree somewhere.
MAYBE WE SHOULD NOT TARGET FUEL PRICES /TAX WITH PROTESTS , WE COULD ALL AS A NATION REFUSE TO PAY OUR ROAD TAX.
1. THERE IS NO INFRASTRUCTURE TO ARREST AND IMPOUND EVERYONES VEHICLE .THERE WOULD BE AN EMMEDIATE SAVING FROM RUNNING THE WHOLE THING , AN ABSOLUTE FORTUNE TO BE SAVED FROM THE TAX DODGER TECHNOLOGY( THIS WOULD FREE SOME TIME FOR THE POLICE TO TARGET OTHER CRIMINALS ) ,YOUR VEHICLES CAR MILEAGE /SIZE COULD DICTATE WHAT YOU PAID TO FUEL IT., HAVE A MAXIMUM AND MINIMUM FILL UP.MAKE PEOPLE THINK ABOUT WHEN AND HOW THEY USED THEIR VEHICLES .
GOVERNMENT TO BE MORE TRANSPARENT ON HOW REVENUE FROM OUR CARS IS USED AND VIA THE INTERNET WE SHOULD VOTE WHETHER WE AGREE OR DISAGREE, EVERYONE HAS ACCESS TO THE INTERNET , (THE LIBRARY) PROTEST WITH FEET AND FINGERS NO OUR TIME , PETROL AND VEHICLES
Post 24: It is pretty tiresome when people habitually take out their frustration and/or anger on 'greenies' or 'tree huggers'. The BIG issue behind all of this has little to do with global warming but much more to do with fossil fuel driven energy. We (the human race) have been on a hundred year long energy spending spree based upon the premise of cheap fossil fuels (be they coal, oil or gas). This has allowed for continued economic growth which has enabled people to achieve false positions of financial self worth (and I'm one of them). Continued economic growth will not be possible once we hit peak oil. This point of peak oil has already occured or will be occuring very soon. Once this concept is spread across the general media and generally accepted the whole edifice will come tumbling down. In a funny way, this might actually mean that petrol prices fall but only of course because we will be in the grip of a recession, or even worse a depression.
The whole system of travelling for pleasure and work will have to change in the future. The government needs to re-nationalise the railways and then pump billions in. People are going to have to live closer to their work places and not demand cheap holidays in Spain. We are all in for a momentous reality check.
Protests, blockades and petitions will have no effect on the government, whether Labour or Tory.
I find it highly amusing that there are 25 posts in this blog whilst the other 3 recent blogs have totalled 15,000 posts or so. How can so much vented spleen result in a pathetic attendance at the recent 'protests'?? I recall the following idiom along the lines of 'say what you do and do what you say'
I Followed with intrest transanction prostest re fuel prices one point made
in my local paper that it showed person with a refirenery as a back drop as
a lone
[protester} the last time i remembered aprotest about petrol was a strike
THE POWER OF THE UNIONS refirenery.lorry drivers blocking petrol stations
as the say the majorty vote counts then they go on in a group may be this wear it faild so well done those who went i will support any written way i can (i suffur with a medical problem) before the crittics start.
Iam not sure how other countries pay at pumps and our their prices set
I WILL FOLLOW TRANSACTION PROTEST 2007
THINKING OF PEOPLE AT AMAS + NEW YEAR
26, It's also very tiresome when people with nothing to say apart from repeating the same tired old sentences about how things are going to have to change, how much different everything will be, continue to butt in.
Do us a favour and get over yourself, no one thinks change isn't necessary, but instead of bleating on about the years to come, how about a solution or two 'now'. Taxation isn't a solution to the problem, the people who can afford to consume and waste the most now, will continue to consume and waste the most regardless of how much tax is dumped on a product, meanwhile the people who have to make ends meet will be driven (pun intended) into the ground.
Same old 'peak oil' nonsense, a principle even the oil companies don't subscribe to, the easy oil has been found granted, but there's plenty still there to be had that would still be cheaper to the end user inspite of increased production costs than petrol is now if the fuel duty were removed and the only taxation were just VAT, that would then ease us into the next phase rather than this absurd notion of ripping off the public.
Tax us to change how exactly? ...move closer to were I work? ...in the last twenty years I've had seven different jobs (the same job, but for seven different employers) do you suggest I move every time I get a new job? what about schools for the children? ..get a new dentist? ..getting a new doctor? etc etc etc
You people really should think things through a little before you commit text to blog.
Billions being sunk into public transport? ..is that before or after all the aid to Iraq, new military weapons or supporting everyone who wants to move here from europe?
This problem has been on the table for as long as I can remember but nothing has been done about it. There are no super economical vehicles, there are no buses that could get me to work at a decent time (even if my work were only five miles away bearing in mind that no one does a 40 hour week anymore) trains are a complete mess and if you have to go into hospital you're lucky if you come out alive, let alone better.
So before you carry on with your sanctimonious rethoric about global change, have a rethink about you being the only person who's seen the light because you people are starting to sound like a broken record.
We know it's got to change, but in the meantime I've got to feed my kids you morons, so instead of wasting your time sitting on your arse typing nonsense, leave us alone to complain about a government who so incompetant they couldn't arrange the proverbial drink up in a brewary.
See what you think and pass it on if you agree with it
We are hitting 106.9 p a litre in some areas now, soon we will be faced with paying £1.10 a ltr. Philip Hollsworth offered this good idea:
This makes MUCH MORE SENSE than the 'don't buy petrol on a certain
day campaign that was going around last April or May! The oil
companies just laughed at that because they knew we wouldn't
continue to hurt ourselves by refusing to buy petrol. It was more of >an inconvenience to us than it was a problem for them. BUT,whoever
thought of this idea, has come up with a plan that can really work.
Please read it and join in!
Now that the oil companies and the OPEC nations have conditioned us
to think that the cost of a litre is CHEAP, we need to take
a ggressive action to teach them that BUYERS control the market place
not sellers. With the price of petrol going up more each day, we
consumers need to take action. The only way we are going to see the
price of petrol come down is if we hit someone in the pocket by not
purchasing their Petrol! And we can do that WITHOUT hurting
ourselves. Here's the idea:
For the rest of this year DON'T purchase ANY petrol from the two biggest oil companies (which now are one), ESSO and BP.
If they are not selling any petrol, they will be inclined to reduce their prices. If they reduce their prices, the other companies will have to follow suit. But to have an impact we need to reach literally millions of Esso and BP petrol buyers. It's
really simple to do!!
Now, don't wimp out on me at this point... keep reading and I'll explain how simple it is to reach millions of people!!
I am sending this note to a lot of people. If each of you send it to
at least ten more (30 x 10 = 300)... and those 300 send it to at
least ten more (300 x 10 = 3,000) ... and so on, by the time the
message reaches the sixth generation of people, we will have reached
over THREE MILLION consumers! If those three million get excited and
pass this on to ten friends each, then 30 million people will have
been contacted! If it goes one level further, you guessed it... ..
THREE HUNDRED MILLION PEOPLE!!!
Again, all You have to do is send this to 10 people. That's all.(and
not buy at ESSO/BP) How long would all that take? If each of us
sends this email out to ten more people within one day of receipt,
all 300 MILLION people could conceivably be contacted within the
next 8days!!! Acting together we can make a difference If this makes
sense to you, please pass this message on.
PLEASE HOLD OUT UNTIL THEY LOWER THEIR PRICES TO THE 69p a LITRE
RANGE
It's easy to make this happen. Just forward this email, and buy your
petrol at Shell, Asda,Tesco, Sainsburys, Morrisons Jet etc. i.e.
boycott BP and Esso
28. this is just stupid how the hell will this make an effect, with 90% of forecourts now indepently owned or franchised and with just 2ppl profit margian in it if they wont be able to survive with just 1ppl taken off so how can you expect prices to reach 69ppl when the goverments tax is nearly 75ppl and it cost aprox 25ppl to make ship and deliver the fuel so how do you work that one out.
a stressed forecourt manager
I think the reason these protests failed is the simple fact that motoring is cheaper now in real terms than at any time in the past. I know we all like to moan about the cost of fuel, tax etc. but it takes a far smaller proportion of our disposable income today than 5, 10, 20 years ago.
Most people don't really care about their fuel use, if they did we would not see as many 4x4's and those ridiculous bechromed pick-ups around. The size and weight of cars is increasing all the time, if we were genuinely feeling the pinch we would all be driving citroen C1's and the like.
Now that the psychological barrier of £1 a litre has been passed (and the expense of changing the pumps to display an extra digit) I think we will see a rapid increase in pump prices as petrol companies and garages seek to raise their profit margins.
I think that in a few years time we will look back fondly on the £1 / litre as the good old days of cheap motoring.
Having returned from Italy and you may of course be aware that the Italians put their mouth where their money is and that's taking action, with a very united front.
Nothing moved the blockade was very real with support from their fellow countryman. I did not hear one retailer complain. Why, because it effects everybody, not just the drivers who make a living by transporting goods.
Their actions were because they were fed up with high fuel prices and low wages..sound familiar?
Anyway I am sure many of us feel like this, but unless we take a united stand, nothing will happen and this blog will continue and this time next year we will be complaining about paying £1.20 per litre
Just lip service I am afraid!
Merry Xmas to you all.
Best wishes
Dave (sorry my first blog was a moan)
Unfortunately we are all mouth and no action and only voice our annoyance on how our illustrious government keep putting the prices up.
it is worth remembering that the claimed reason the price of fuel has increased is the increased cost of oil. Not so, the price of a barrel has increased as the value of the dollar falls, so the actual price hasn't increased so much. the pound has also risen against the dollar, which should protect the UK from the supposed oil price increase. so we pay more via the dollar, but should get some back !
The Arab countries are concerned about falling revenue with the fall in the dollar, their problem for pegging their product against a moving currency. The possible solution they are investigating is a common Arab currency (similar to the European common Euro) and pricing the oil against that. This will take away one excuse for rising fuel prices !
Just one point that never seems to get enough publicity is the problem of so many people living in rural areas.The public transport situation is nothing more than a sick joke.We live over 12 miles away from our nearest town,the local bus service runs twice a day.The nearest bus stop is a mile down the road.Our nearest filling station is now 8 miles away.I am disabled which makes it impossible for me to even think of public transport.The only solution is to use the car.This is becoming more & more expensive to use.Pensions do not rise to keep pace with Browns diabolical tax system.Lets forget fuel protests & go for a full revolution to rid our great country of these Westminster Cowbows.
A Happy Christmas to one & all & hopes for a more sane 2008.
I agree with the posting by David Cooper, 19th December 2007 7:43pm
we should all boycot major retailer for one month (or even a week) at a time, lets see what affect that it has on their profits!. As for Mr (golden) Brown, when will he realise that those of us who live in rural parts of the country need to use our cars for simple things like Getting to work!, where the bus would either get me there 1hour early or 45min late, Not to mentilon i would be home far to late to say good noght to my daughter!. I watch Every litre off fuel I put into my car, I cant afford to waste it. I'd use my motorbike more but the state the roads are in I would probably come off by hitting a pot-hole!!. So much for Road fund Tax, Tax on the fuel, Tax on purchasing the car, James May (Top Gear) what you said was So Right!.
Sorry, not sure why my name is wrong on my posting!, #35, this one should be correct!. And also sorry for spelling mistakes!. Happy New Year to All!.
Ah, the old boycott a particular retailer scheme, comes up like a bad penny. Before David Cooper and Neil Daines waste any more time on it, it won't work. Fuel companies regularly buy petrol off each other to met unexpected rises in demand, a common reason is sales promotions like free tumblers etc. The company who doesn't have the desired item often ends up selling it's stock to the one doing the promotion. Marketers will justify the exercise in terms of brand recognition and additional trade (the sandwiches, cigarettes etc we bought all with the fuel and free drinking glass). The boycott won't work unless you stay out of your car or make one tank full last that whole month :-D
In 1938 a renowned English academic made the statement.
"A finite resource, and ever expanding population is a receipe for chaos"
Over the last week the Spot Price of Crude Oil in NW/Europe has averaged $93.94/Bbl or £47.26/Bbl. The average exchange rate was 1.9876 to the Dollar. Oil is rising, the pound is falling.
On the Products Market the average for Petrol was 31.16p/litre.
The average for Diesel was 36.19p/litre. This is "raw" fuel, no additives or delivery to station.
Protests will not control the price of Oil or the exchange rate. The only weapon the motorist has, is in fact "demand". No matter what you drive or why you drive.
Less use, is the only thing that will drive prices down, and at the same time save you money. It doesn't take much, to affect an economy built on "spending" rather than saving.
Nice one Learjet, yet another wasted post by the psuedo inteligent who's read of couple of sunday supplements and thinks he's more aware than anyone else.
Next time try to come up with something we don't already know.
Now, back to the problem, either fuel duty gets reduced, a viable alternative to hydro carbons is thought up, or I give up my job and live off your taxes Learjet.
It's like 'duh' we know the problem, so unless you have a solution, give up repeating yourself!
Don't read newspapers, as for living off my taxes. You'd starve, I don't pay any, apart from VAT on purchases.
Speaking of which, the EU is pressing the present Government to raise the amount of VAT from 17.5% to 20%. To be in line with other EU members.
The Fuel Duty will not be reduced, but get ready for "Carbon Rationing" as opposed to "Road Charges"
A viable alternative to Fossil Fuel is a long way off, so unemployment looms on the horizon.
Bernie: Perhaps your reading comprehension is a little rusty, but I saw the solution quite clear. Reduce the population.
Oh, but that's a solution no one likes. So let's entrust our future to the TECHNOLOGY GOD, for we can solve things like finite resources with technology, of course. I hear hydrogen, bio-fuels and smarter governments are all suitable replacements for running out of water/food/liquidity/energy.
You people don't get it. And it cracks me up. "OH NOES!11 TEH TAXES!", only there's a bigger problem, namely the planet falling apart. It's like worrying about your pay cheque not rising with inflation whilst sitting in your house. Which is on fire.
Perspective? What's that? I want cheap motoring! Screw everyone else.
Zakalwe: You assume too much, as do many of your kind. I've no objection to tackling the population problem, immigration being only the tip of the iceberg and I think it's about time someone in government had the guts to get on with it.
Now let me put you straight a little, where do I deny there's a looming fuel problem? or are you so caught up in your paranoid propaganda that anyone who isn't wearing sandles made from recycled bin liners is all put in the same catagory and in your tiny little mind doesn't care about the planet at all?
In your paranoid little world do you not grasp the fact that civilisation is based on economics and without people working there is no future, green or otherwise as the population en masse decend into anarchy.
For goodness sake, get over yourself or go and see a therapist before you lose the plot altogether.
This problem has been looming since I was a child forty odd years ago (infact back then, it was global cooling that was the issue as all the government scientists predicted the next ice age, which oddly enough, surprise surprise, didn't happen) so you'll forgive me if I tell you go hug a tree and stop talking like a fool, because I've seen it all before and I do find it really ammusing that it's only now the nutters come out of the closet and start panicking and demanding an end to anything they don't approve of.
So, let me ask you a question, you're quite happy to complain about everyone else, what are your solutions to the problem? ..do you have any idea what the problem is, or do you just suck in the politics of fear that have been rife over the last several decades since government realised the fear of god was on the decline.
Got to maintain order somehow, lets scare everyone into it, instead of dealing with the population as inteligent adults, lets scare them silly and then they'll tow the line.
Ok, so, seeing as taxation on fuel is no solution to the looming problem, what shall we do eh? ..or is your garden big enough to grow everything you need and the price of fuel doesn't affect you in anyway?
You can only put a tax on something to make it less desirable if there's an alternative, as there are no alternatives to persuade us to use, whats the point?
Quite frankly, I could live my life with a wind turbine in my garden to run the house on and work from home using the internet and have a little wind turbine on the garage roof and a battery powered golf buggy to do the shopping in, but I'm not allowed to use it on the public highway or footpath as I'm not disabled.
I'm not even allowed to put a home made solar panel on the roof of my house to heat water during the summer, because (get this) according to the council, it would ruin the enviroment.
So, seeing as I'm willing to change, I've even made an effort to change, not just for the enviroment, but for my pocket as well, but I'm simply not allowed to, what is your bitter and twisted little mind going to tell you to say now?
Now, do something useful and go plant a tree!
An Australian living in London recently remarked that if we, as a Nation, were to take all the energy we put into whinging about our problems into actually doing something about them, the UK would become the best country in which to live in the World.
I appreciate that's not the most helpful comment on thie blog post, but I think he made a good point.
***Zakalwe: You assume too much, as do many of your kind. I've no objection to tackling the population problem, immigration being only the tip of the iceberg and I think it's about time someone in government had the guts to get on with it.
Now let me put you straight a little, where do I deny there's a looming fuel problem? or are you so caught up in your paranoid propaganda that anyone who isn't wearing sandles made from recycled bin liners is all put in the same catagory and in your tiny little mind doesn't care about the planet at all?***
You asked where the solution was. It was self-evident. Don't try and non sequitur me.
[quote]In your paranoid little world do you not grasp the fact that civilisation is based on economics and without people working there is no future, green or otherwise as the population en masse decend into anarchy.[/quote]
Hilariously, you're dead wrong. I actually am well aware of economics, having studied it at college level at least. What I prefer, and what I got my degree in, is biology, which is a hard science that pretty much knocks human ideals in the rubbish bin at the end of the day. Yes, people need to work else society fails or, at the very least, we get the fun of the 1930s pre-war depression. But guess what? Nature couldn't give a frack about ALL people working, or even having food. There are too many people. They are not all going to get cushy jobs, nor will they be jobs that are mandatory for society, as the vast bulk of retail, for instance, is today. Very little we produce in the West can be construed as essential for our species given our vast affluence from cheap, abundant fossil fuels.
***For goodness sake, get over yourself... *SNIP****
***This problem has been looming since I was a child forty odd years ago (infact back then, it was global cooling that was the issue as all the government scientists predicted the next ice age, which oddly enough, surprise surprise, didn't happen) so you'll forgive me if I tell you go hug a tree and stop talking like a fool, because I've seen it all before and I do find it really ammusing that it's only now the nutters come out of the closet and start panicking and demanding an end to anything they don't approve of.***
Wow, a strawman involving global cooling. Golly, I didn't see _that_ one coming. Too bad that the people who picked up on that gem were mainly the US tabloids and that the climate models with the limited computing power of the time and understanding of such phenomena indicated potential issues that were the reverse of what we see now. Here's what changed: industry grew. A lot. Various feedback loops kicked in. The argument that scientists were wrong in the past does not nullify the arguments that we're clearly seeing now being proven beyond reasonable doubt.
The best part of this? You completely missed my whole point. Even if climate change wasn't real -- and you'd have to be a prize moron to deny it, or a Daily Mail reader (same difference) -- my point is about resource depletion, something the '72 Club of Rome report handily pointed out. And if you think that's some liberal, hippie propaganda, please, tell me how infinite growth happens in a finite world. I need a laugh.
Don't forget the collapse of the credit system. Something with _no_ historical precedent and which could, as the Telegraph article the other week put it, make '29 look like a "walk in the park".
***So, let me ask you a question, you're quite happy to complain about everyone else, what are your solutions to the problem? ..do you have any idea what the problem is, or do you just suck in the politics of fear that have been rife over the last several decades since government realised the fear of god was on the decline.***
I guess you simply don't read my posts. Population control. I've only mentioned it, ooh, about a dozen times over the last few threads on this blog. But then someone, like yourself, pulls out a total non-started rebuttal like "But people need cars/jobs/to have many babies! It's not fair!". Yeah, life's an ice queen like that.
***Got to maintain order somehow, lets scare everyone into it, instead of dealing with the population as inteligent adults, lets scare them silly and then they'll tow the line.
Ok, so, seeing as taxation on fuel is no solution to the looming problem, what shall we do eh? ..or is your garden big enough to grow everything you need and the price of fuel doesn't affect you in anyway?***
The age of happy motoring and suburban lifestyles needs to end. It's ending anyway, but I'd rather we did it in a controlled crash rather than watch the faeces really hit the oscillator.
***You can only put a tax on something to make it less desirable if there's an alternative, as there are no alternatives to persuade us to use, whats the point?
Quite frankly, I could live my life with a wind turbine in my garden to run the house on and work from home using the internet and have a little wind turbine on the garage roof and a battery powered golf buggy to do the shopping in, but I'm not allowed to use it on the public highway or footpath as I'm not disabled.
I'm not even allowed to put a home made solar panel on the roof of my house to heat water during the summer, because (get this) according to the council, it would ruin the enviroment.
So, seeing as I'm willing to change, I've even made an effort to change, not just for the enviroment, but for my pocket as well, but I'm simply not allowed to, what is your bitter and twisted little mind going to tell you to say now?
Now, do something useful and go plant a tree!***
And of course this government needs to change in order to accomodate such a future. Frankly, what do you expect when Brown says he'll combat the super serious threat of climate change, then goes on to expand every major airport in the UK. Because as we know, the economy has to keep growing so we can buy more useless junk, even if it means we lose the island we live on. Priorities are screwed up here, or Brown simply doesn't believe the likes of Katrina can affect the UK.
And while planting trees is helpful and cute and all, it doesn't alter the fact that every day, more of us are being made from the limited resources of this planet. Rare Earth metals such as indium are becoming scarce with barely a decade left for a great many that most people won't even have heard of, but that which are essential for electronics or other products today. Energy is going to get expensive again, very expensive, as is food and fresh water is also fast disappearing all against the back-drop of a credit liquidity crunch and phosphate peak too.
Economics, as you say, is mandatory. But the current capitalistic model is simply not workable. We need to work on a steady-state economy that doesn't need to grow year on year (look at the Xmas shopping figures and how many expected a horrible turn out when spending didn't increase by so many percentage points over last year). It simply isn't sustainable, and unsustainable species in ecology always encounter die-off. I'd rather we didn't overshoot and have billions starve, fight to the death or otherwise suffer.
In case you're wondering, the world's actual carrying capacity is rated around the Cuban level for one billion people, maybe a little higher in life style quality. We have near seven billion people now and many are trying to reach US and EU living standards. That will simply not happen.
Ever since petrol was 37p a GALLON people were whinging, but I worked for my fuel to ride/drive for fun (and to get to work), it's my fix and I NEED it. Five years? from now - £5/litre? I'll still be buying the stuff. The planet? I'll not be here long enough to worry about it nor my kids as if we really make a difference! Hey ask the Dinosuars, couple of million years from now there may well be no people but I bet the planet will still be home to something or other. I'm too busy having fun at the minute, pity all the poor sods who've nothing better in life than to push their ideals down the throats of folk who don't give a sht.
Bullocks I'm off to blast my bike around another 50 miles to nowhere - see ya!
Zakalwe:
I can't be bothered to argue with you anymore, we're paying in advance for cynical tax cuts in the next election, fuel duty has little or nothing to do with the state of the planet and much more to do with politics.
I am aware of your points, so don't assume you're telling me anything new and I did agree with you about population, even though you obviously missed it.
The world has to change ..erm ..yes! ..we know! ...but it isn't going to all the time this government continues to hide it's incompetence behind a hysteria fueled 'green' and 'global terrorism' smoke screen, while ripping us all off at every turn to pay for a series of really really bad policies.
Nuff said really ..it's a con and we all know it's a con!
To post 45,
Top comment. I have been interested in motor cars and the internal combustion engine for about the past 25 years (since I was 3). I enjoy driving and it is my hobby and like you I will carry on driving for pleasure as long as I can.
I am horrifed how much tax we pay on fuel and I think the goverment needs to do something about it. I am willing to lobby the goverment to reduce fuel tax, but mass support is needed.
Bernie: A fair point, and apologies for the long winded response. A lot of my comments are never fully understood and it pains me to see the vast majority of people feel that we can continue as we are doing now with rampant consumption and growth and incompetent governments pandering to this under the false guise of fixing the problem.
Stewart: Unfortunately for you, the price isn't going to be the limiting factor. Physical shortages will be. In the '70s, Americans would happily queue for hours for fuel and pay far higher, extortionate rates. Not that it mattered when the stations were out of gas. Your money is worthless if there isn't enough product to sell.
I also find your attitude disturbing and once again reinforces my cynical view of the species. This "Screw everyone else, I'll do what I like!" lifestyle is quite sad. I hope you don't have kids, because they're not going to thank you for it (though given your post, I doubt you have the mental faculties to rear kids anyway).
Hey, for an encore, why not rationalise rape and murder too? After all, we're all going to die sooner or later, right?
well to be honist i think it is simply because everyone has now got used to idea of rising costs in everything in the uk from bread to petrol and that people are just getting on with there lifes as they have noticed nothing will ever change. I mean now petrol is £1 and over which people think is dear but in 10 years time everyone will be saying remember how cheap petrol was back in 2007-8.
They tried to scare me in the 60's - neuclear holocaust!!!, the 70's - I've still got my petrol rationing booklet, there was supposed to be no more oil by the 90's! The 80's- Aids was going to kill us all!!! The 90's??? God knows it was then I gave up listening to what ever it was that I was supposed to feel guilty about. Now it's terror and global warming, so excuse me if I'm too cynical for my own good. There's always something isn't there? I used to have scary sleepless nights wondering if the matress in the doorway would really save me.
I hope I don't have a "screw everyone else attitude", I like to think I believe everyone has the right to do as they please within reason (and the law) as long as there not hurting anyone OR forcing their way onto someone else. As for opinions everyone is entitled to their's but wouldn't it be nice if folk didn't get so upset when they find their's isn't accepted by anyone else?
I don't like the taxes either you know but we'll be fleeced one way or another. If it's 50p off a litre of fuel you can be sure it'll mean 70p onto a breathing tax or some other cr*p!!!!!!!
Of course Zakalwe's (post 48) just confirms my negative views on some people ie: resort to personal insult when you can't bear to accept that some people have their own take on life (especially without knowing the circumstances that brought them to their particular point in life).
There's people in very high places of power who can't change anything, there's people with millions of pounds who can't do it - so I guess I've just accepted I'm not important enough to change anything either, but then isn't that what I'm supposed to do? Bleedin ell how did I get drawn into this? my head hurts Ha,Ha! So guess what I just want to enjoy myself while I can (Kids say they still love me anyway so that's one less worry
Understand, that my impression was you just didn't give a damn anyway and felt it okay to go ahead and party whilst the world burned. It seems useless today because just about everyone is that way. It's not your fault, but a flaw in our psychology. Yes, there have always been threats and alarmism is now a perfected art in the mass media. This, however, is a different story. The media doesn't blurt on about it daily because of either ignorance or finding a more interesting story with Paris Hilton or a footballer. Or because it would scare people.
I am a cynic myself. Although I was not around in the '70s, the past year with my realisation of what lies in store for us has turned me into a real pessimist. I tried to fight it and help friends and family and start an initiative in my home village, but people either didn't care or said the doomsaying only made them feel they could do nothing but go out with a bang.
By all means, accept that we are powerless now. The time for a smooth transition was decades ago, when Carter was talking about such things and no one cared once OPEC opened the taps again. The Club of Rome report was wrong because of those events. Oil didn't hit a peak in the '90s as they predicted. Instead, the slow '70s and '80s pushed it back a decade to now.
Ultimately, this is the problem. Tax is high, to be sure and I don't love Labour or the Tories for fracking us over with such high fuel duty, but at least it means there is something of a blanket for a limited while that can be used to buffer higher oil prices. Cutting on duty means we could take a bigger price rise given we're used to such costs now. In the US where such tax is minimal, they find any increase today harsh (at the lower end of the spectrum, that is. The rich still buy huge SUVs with rubbish mileage).
It'd be almost comical incompetence for a species supposedly so smart, if only so many people weren't going to die from overshoot.
As an aside, the word filter on this website is PITIFULLY childish. If "Screw-ing" is a, oh my gosh, BAD WORD, then I sure hope no one under the age of 5 is reading this. I love the self-imposed Orwellian new-speak.
Let us not forget the point ...'Petrol is cheap in 2008' ...it's the fuel duty.
Petroleum companies and production costs are not to blame, our Government is.
Just as everyone is beginning to think that they should jump on a train instead of in the car, they announce a huge ticket price increase there as well.
It's now cheaper to fly to New York than it is to travel by train from Manchester to London.
This is nothing to do with a sick planet, this is to do with a government so incompetent and so arogant it believes everyone is stupid enough to fall for this nonsense.
Oil has just passed $100/barrel. Things are about to get interesting.
Being disabled using a car is the only way I can leave the confines of my home. Every penny that goes onto the cost of a litre of petrol means that there are going to be less trips for me away from my home. There are many thousands of people in the same position yet this caring government still insists on causing this increase in the cost of fuel due to over taxing this product. It's not the oil companies to blame just our beloved government. There will be people who will end up losing their employment due to the over-inflated prices but none of them will be MP's. Thats food for thought.
Even at $100 a barrel, the price of petrol without any tax would only be somewhere around 40 to 50p a litre
(I'm sure someone who runs a garage can supply the exact figure if necessary)
Even if you add VAT at 17.5% it's still around 57 to 59p a litre.
Nope, I'm afraid, it's not the fuel companies that are to blame for this, it is our government, our caring, nanny government.
Lieing theiving bartenders, every last one of them.
REPLY TO 45
Unleaded for Mondays delivery (About $100. a barrel)
Cost of product 34.31 pence per litre (Excludes VAT, Duty, Retailer profit or distribution costs)
Add on garage and Fuel company profit and VAT and you would pay 45.6 pence for a litre of unleaded
However Base Cost = 34.31p
Duty = 50.35p
Split Profit = 4.50p
VAT = 15.60p
Retail price for Monday should be = 104.8p
SUMMARY
Price with no Duty no VAT = 38.81 pence a Litre
Price with no Duty but with VAT = 45.6 pence a litre
Price with Duty plus VAT plus VAT on Duty = 104.8 pence a Litre
Things will get interesting
they can cut something of this the prices are far to dear i live in a rual area i need my car its about 104 average for me at a min prices should be at 92 at most
The argument should be at the goverment this country does jacks shite really we sit back and take it user frendly ozone rubbish unleaded is suppose to be user friendly the price needs to drop and soon or as a fellow guys posted on here there will be no point in going to work in all aspects prices are far to dear a loaf of bread is about £1.07 pence wages do not rise enough to keep up with it im curious how much is it for unleaded in say jersey
Darren Ross: Good grief, man. Commas, full stops. Use them. Reading that was painful.
To address one point though, the price of food rising so much is down to various factors, not just energy costs. It's more like a positive feedback loop, actually. The current fad is bio-fuels (the ridiculousness of them is another can o' worms), which means a greater amount of the crops produced today go into your fuel tank, not your stomach. That is having a massive effect on food retailers and we're already seeing the global grain stock reach an all time low with respect to days of supply left. China and India are also gobbling up a lot of food to go with their steel, oil and all other fine resources.
Getting over the stupid bio-fuel notion will alleviate the price somewhat. However, given energy prices are going up thanks to peaking oil and gas (see the npower hike today and continued draw in US gasoline and diesel stocks), it will probably be short lived in effect. Energy underlies all activity, so as long as it is expensive -- and it sure as hell isn't going to get cheaper any more -- so too will everything else.
then dont read it whats yer problem i came on here to state what i think about the situation and because i dont use .....,,,, you got to reply to that
I shall do better, The next time for you..
My local is now 106.99 for petrol ..
Has anyone thought of going down the LPG route?
Like everyone here, it's not nice paying over £1 a litre for fuel.
I've researched the LPG route, driving 10000 miles a year doing 30MPG on average will save around 700 quid a year!
It's an expensive way to save money but as long as the LPG price stays 50% lower than Unleaded it seems worth it.
With a conversion for my Alfa Spider costing £1100, it would only take 18 months to pay for itself!
Unfortunately there is no option for public transport. I do know someone who travels from Wellington-Taunton (Somerset) and pays £5.70 return each day. It's cheaper to drive even at the current petrol prices!
I'd not bother with LPG in the long term. Aside from the government seeing that as the next thing to tax higher, as they did diesel, gas is running short as fast as oil. There's a reason npower just put my gas bill up 27%, and it's not because the government wants more money or we've found some monster natural gas fields in Russia.
my local texaco has just put prices up to 107.9pplfor unl and 11.9for derv and the local tescos only 1ppl behind. when's this all going to end???
63: Never. It won't end, because there are no more seas full of phytoplankton and lands full of dinosaurs being crushed and cooked to be ready to pump into your tank.
Let's suppose for a minute that Transaction 2007 magically become competent and get Brown to see reason and cut fuel duty by 50% (LOL). Fuel falls to, say, 60p/litre. The loss of revenue from fuel duty is then, most likely, made up elsewhere, for instance, by increasing duty on alcohol or certain other public services.
Oil, meanwhile, continues its inexorable rise as traders finally cotton on to the fact that OPEC, namely Saudis, has no spare capacity and any new fields being brought on-stream are only able to off-set declines in dying fields, rather than meet new demand. The Kingdom's lack of cooling the market leads to more frantic trading; the price rises; recession and then depression looms unless demand backs down.
Pretty soon, fuel is back up to 107p/litre. Brown, or whoever finally kicks him out, is not raking it in any more, as the vast majority of the price comes from producing the petroleum. Now what? You can't lobby the Govt., they're not responsible. Big Oil isn't going to cut back, not when the margins are so slim and many garage owners will feel it even more than they do now, especially when most of them are independents and not owned by Big Oil.
I'm genuinely curious as to what you'd do then. There is a valid point about tax now, yes. But that is not going to be the end of the story by a long shot very soon.
How expensive would it have to be, in 2007 pounds, before you cut back or went bankrupt or relocated to a closer job etc.?
Zakalwe:
Can you do us a favour and stop stating the obvious, it's clear you love to see yourself in type, but seeing as apart from tackling the population problem you have no useful comment to add to the discussion, can you please stop answering everyones post with the same old rethoric.
There are solutions and partial solutions to the some of the problems, because life can and will go on regardless of change and your gloomy outlook.
What we're not seeing is any movement toward this change and as I stated in a previous post I'm not allowed to use or deploy any of the ones that are clearly available now.
What we'd like to see is some kind of movement toward a viable way of life instead of just sitting here being ripped off everyday while incompetent government squander their ill gotten gains all over the place and people like you continue to tell us what we already know.
By the way, is my grammer to your satisfaction, or should I just kill myself now?
Reading all those comments, just confirms how utterly and hopelessly dependent we are on a destructive and deadly piece of technology called a car. I am flabbergasted at the exchange of insults and the desperation that is inherent in many of the posts. I shudder to think what will happen when the oil runs out? Just looking at the horrific scenes from Kenya gives a foretaste of the anarchy that lies ahead when the wells run dry - as they are surely and not nearly as lsowly as before. Oil depletion is a geological reality that is unavoidable - Fact.
Now that oil has broken the 100 Dollar a barrel mark, some oil strategists predict that the whole industrial culture will at some point start breaking down and that a world without oil, is not a world that can support 6 billion human beings. It is not a world that can support 3 billion. It may not even be a world that can support one billion, as transportation, power and other oil-dependent products and services will become much more expensive.
We must realise now that attaining a "reasonable lifestyle" cannot be accomplished with sledgehammer tactics of the past. So let's stop the typical rants of an "excuse culture", drop the riotous verbals and start look for solutions, like learning to live more gently on the planet - so as our kids can have one worth living on too.
Finally could I suggest a good read while you are on the train or relaxing in your new era of "half the pay and twice the life mode" - Dr Brian Czech's "Shovelling Fuel for a Runaway Train - Errant Economists, Shameful Spenders, and a Plan to Stop them All..." It may help?
Bernie: It seems stating the obvious is needed for a lot of people still, which is why I have to do it and tire of it myself.
Want solutions? Sure, I've listed them on this blog before. Numerous times. Buy a more efficient car. Live locally to your work place, or find work closer to you. Drive economically doing 55 on main roads, not getting impatient and overtaking someone who dares obey the speed limit. Drive less; do you really have to go and drive into town for a few groceries you can get during the weekly shop? Do you really need to drop the kids off at school a block away in your monster SUV you never take off-road?
That is all you're going to get. The government is not going to cut tax, much as Transaction 2007 might delude themselves into thinking, and they're certainly not going to start funding your shift to a more viable way of life. Not when they promise to tackle climate change one day and then expand airports "for the benefit of the economy" the next. The government is in it for the money, not altruism. If Brown truly understood the issues we have with resource limits and then climate change on top of that, he wouldn't be spewing empty platitudes on TV and then taking actions that fly in the face of what people want. But hey, since the government believes the IEA reports from the early 2000s on oil supply keeping pace with demand until 2030, and since they based all their planning for the economy up till then on such reports; as far as they're concerned, everything will be A-OK. The problems with oil price now are merely a blip, and not part of a growing trend. Too bad the reports today all but state in black and white "We were wrong. We're in real trouble now if those mega-projects don't pan out".
We're not 7-years-old and I don't feel I have to lie to you about everything being okay, because so long as we live in a society that values success as how fast the economy constantly grows, there will be little to be done about rising prices at the pump and at the supermarket check-out.
This whole fuel affair is a part of these events, so nothing I've stated is irrelevant here. You can't get cheap petrol if more people are using more of a finite resource, and the price rises lately are down to oil shifting up, not the two pence Brown has put on after years of keeping the tax stable. The overarching problem is population growth; the immediate problem is oil production failing to keep pace with that. It'll be food next, and then rare earth metals, phosphate, fresh water and various other things we kind've need to survive, but I hear the economy will have collapsed by that point (who'd have thought reckless credit expenditure would kill the economy?). What's that? My attitude is pessimistic because I'm not saying the Technology God or pure human spirit will bring us through smelling of roses? That's too bad. Deal with it. What we face has never been faced by humanity before in 10,000 years of recorded history. We are still animals and still obey ecology and any species that overshoots its maximum population limit is fracked. The max sustainable population for this planet with modern Western living standards is one billion people, tops. You do the maths.
Oh, and cute comment about the grammar (that's with an "a"). I guess it is silly of me to expect legibility on a textual medium in the person's first language. Mebbe we shud tlk liek dis an fck eNglish totaly, ya feel me?!?!?!?!! LOLZ
Zakalwe:
You really just can't help yourself can you.
Lets get something straight here, people who buy the big gas guzzlers can afford to put the petrol in them and continue to waste a great deal. Taxation is doing nothing to stop them.
On the other hand, those of us who do have small economical cars, not just because of the enviroment, but because of our pockets and who don't drive unless it's essential are being driven into the ground by this fuel duty, not the price per barrel, the fuel duty and that makes it even more difficult to retain any kind of lifestyle, let alone the deluded grandiose version of lifestyle you seem to think 'everyone' has.
For god sake, either go out for a bike ride or get some prozak because if your only contribution is to continue to repeat yourself about things we already know, you are as guilty as those you perceive to be causing the problem.
You've already identified that Brown is an arse, if no political pressure is put on this government, how on earth do you think your imminant appocalypse is going to be lessened?
Fuel is running out? ..duh ..yes we know ...problems ahead? ..duh ..yes we know, so how is you sitting on your butt discouraging anyone from doing anything going to help?
Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to go and earn a living.
Of cuorse if you hvae nthonig btteer to do wtih yuor tmie tahn crtisice my spllenig and you feel btteer and mroe imoprantt auobt yuorslef ocne yuo've crroected an unedcutaed bffuon like me, tehn tahts fnie by me as wlel!
Guys calm down. Yes everyone knows there is not as much oil left as ten years ago but there is still enough to keep us going for the next 50 years (at least). Us as the "supreme" human race on earth came up with this brilliant way of converting oil into useful energy surly within the next 50 years we will come up with a suitable replacement.
Let us not over do things. There is nothing wrong with being careful but lets not under estimate what we can do, what we can achieve.
By making fuel dearer through tax is not working we still need our cars. It has been proved in the past and it is being proven now. I think if the government stopped paying for people who do not feel like working because there is welfare or the teen-agers who decide to fall pregnant and get luxuries such as houses as a reward there would be enough money to "afford" to put the fuel duty down.
I do not think (my opinion) that population is that much of a problem. Great nations need people power to keep things running. If it was that bad of a problem there would be restrictions on family sizes. Immigration would not be such a problem if we just took the opportunities such as EDUCATION and used it. There would be no need for foreign scientists and engineers if the locals would study it. Everyone is too busy trying to be the next pop star or page three girl and immigrants are capitalising on it.
I have another suggestion as a cure for the rise in fuel prices. Force all filling stations to sell at the same price. That would cut out people driving that extra mile to get 2 pence cheaper than their local station. Make diesel cheaper than petrol. Modern diesels use less in terms of quantity than other forms of fuels even LPG. Lastly the government should try to keep the price steady. For example fuel going up once a year only. I know people will try to argue but it can be done.
It seems my last comment wasn't added. I shall type it up again later as close as I remember it.
Bernie: Concession accepted. Don't let the door hit your posterior on the way out.
Now that it's just sensible adults left, let's continue.
Joe Blow: You are correct in that we will have oil in 50 years. In fact, we will likely have a lot of oil 1,000 years from now still in the ground. The problem is not running out of oil. It is that we have _run out_ of light, sweet crude that is easy to find and extract. Even if oil prices reached $1,000/barrel without the economy imploding (doubtful), if the energy return on the sour crud you may as well use as asphalt is less than what you put in, then it's a zero sum game. You can't sustain anything if it takes two barrels worth of oil energy to extract one barrel of oil from the ground. Oil prices have already quadruple in less than a decade as we sit on this "undulating plateaux". Imagine what will happen when oil output _declines_ finally at a percentage every year.
I'm sorry to say there are no alternatives to this either. Oil is the most energy dense hydrocarbon there is. Quite simply, it is the most precious resource this planet has, and ever will, have. The likes of bio-fuels will not make a dent in demand, for a simple reason. Think of oil from the ground as an inheritance left by a rich uncle which you use to supplement your meagre salary at a local McDonald's. You have plenty of money from the inheritance to squander on what you want, but when it's run out, you have only your salary to take up the slack in the future. The oil from millions of years ago is the inheritance and we've used all the good stuff up. Paradoxically, the less useful stuff is harder to get and more expensive, and this is playing havoc with the refineries globally right now. There is no such thing as a free lunch, and there are no more elephant size oil fields left to sate our appetites.
Don't fill up at the most expensive garage, thanks to petrol prices information try and find the cheapest station in your area, at least you'll get slightly more litres per tank. Ive just payed 105.9pence per litre for diesel thats the cheapest in my area. Protesters should not have given up, hope they try again somewhere local. Would gather a team of mates and try get the message across to this greedy rip-off government to lower fuel duty. Thank you petrolprices.com keep up the good work.
I HAVE HAD IT WITH THE COST OF FUEL. WHEN I VISITED GURNESEY IT WAS 39P A LITRE.
THE COST OF FUEL IS NOT ACCEPTABLE AND YES THE GOVERNMENT MAY PUT OTHER TAX UP LIKE ON FOOD OR CIGS BUT AT LEAST WE WOULD BE ABLE TO AFFORD TO GET TO WORK AND GET THE MONEY. AT THE MO I FIND IT HARD TO KEEP UP WITH FUEL RISES AS I COMMUTE 110 MILES (ALTOGETHER) A DAY
Why did it run out of steam?
It's obvious really, everyone realises it's not the oil companies who're causing the price hike, it's our government.
All we can really do is sit back and allow Gordon and the Muppett show to rake in the coffers so that at least when we vote him out at the next election, the following government has a financial headstart to start repairing the damage caused by this lampoon of a government.
well smthing shoud be done about this petrol prices as that nealy raching 110 a liter and nearly costing 20% more 4 evry thing