16.02.07 Why did you sign the travel tax petition?

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3982 comments 25316 votes

Unless you have had your head buried in the sand for the last 6 weeks, you will have seen and quite probably signed the travel tax petition.

Did you sign the travel tax petition?

Over 1.5 million UK citizens have now signed the petition which will be closed to new signatures on 20th February.

The petition is a plea to "scrap the planned vehicle tracking and road pricing policy" which the Department for Transport is proposing as a solution to congestion on UK roads. Every vehicle would be tracked via satellite and motorists would pay tax depending on how far they travel, at what time and on which roads. This new travel tax would probably take the place of vehicle tax discs and fuel tax (so petrol and diesel would be much cheaper).

We are delighted that the British public is getting so involved in this issue. However, for this petition to be a success, it should not just dismiss this travel tax idea outright. Instead, it should spark a debate into the pros and cons of this tax. If the proposed system is a bad idea then how do you think motoring should be taxed in the future? Let's all have our say and see if we can come up with a better solution. You tell us:

Do you support the concept of paying tax according to when and where you drive?

Could this new road tax system work?
Do you have a better idea of how to tax motoring?

Your Comments

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I TRAVEL 52 MILES A DAY TO WORK MY HOURS BEING 13.00 23.00 THERE IS NO PUBLIC TRANSPORT THAT I COULD CATCH ESPECIALLY AT THIS TIME OF FINISHING IF THEY TAXED ME PER MILE THEN I WOULD HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO STOP WORKING WHICH WOULD THEN PLACE A BURDEN ON THE WELFARE SYSTEM AS I WOULD BE UNABLE TO TAKE WORK IN MY OWN AREA THAT WOULD SUIT MY MEDICAL NEEDS I WOULD BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO USE PUBLIC TRANSPORT IF THERE WAS ANY

Posted by Susan Lukomiak, 28th February 2007 3:53pm

A car is not a luxury item as many would comment, but if we had a half decent public transport system they perhaps would be.

Anybody who thinks that the new system of charging by the mile and charging according to congestion is going to be cheaper than the current road tax/fuel tax system has not been taking note of the stealth tax which has been creeping up on us the last few years. The original costs might for some be cheaper but they will be increased. You have to ask where the Chancellor is going to get the extra revenue to make up for getting rid of fuel and road tax.

How is the new system going to cope with foreign transport and foreign tourists or will they be exempt?

Posted by David Matthews, 28th February 2007 3:53pm

this is in response to the comment david L wrote on feb 16, this man is a jerk!!!

you are obviously not a motorist and your comments are just plain ignorant!! tax motorists to the hilt you say??? The government and local councils have to provide the population with EXCELLENT transport links before getting us out of our cars through increasing taxes because if you think im sitting around not using my car (struggling to use buses etc) waiting for the government to improve road/rail links you've got another thing coming......and id say the majority of the population who have busy lifestyles cant afford to finish work late, get poor public transport home, then get up at the crack of dawn to sit in a dirty cramped bus stop in foul weather on a winters morning waiting ages for a bus.. Until public transport comes to my door anytime i like of the day 24/7 and takes me to exactly the place i want to be quickly then im sticking with my gas guzzling 1.2 16v clio , you can shove your public transport!!!

Posted by Steven, Newcastle, 28th February 2007 3:54pm

I signed the petition for one reason and one reason alone. How dare the govt think they can get away with taxing drivers for a third time.

We already pay road tax yearly which is variable upon Co2 emissions. Each week we pay fuel duty on every drop of petrol we purchase. This must surely account for a massive sume of money. If this money was immediately returned back into the road network etc then we would not have a problem.

As for stating the money will be invested into to public transport, why the hell should it? the transport is far from publically owned. They are businesses seeking to make profit. As long as this remains they will ram travellers like animals onto trains buses etc.

A Little off point but has any over the height of 6 foot actually tried a bus lately. They are not comfortable or acceptable for journeys of longer then a few minutes.

All in all its just another way for the govt to rake in more income to bump up there fat cat wages and expenses.

Posted by Paul Bertram, 28th February 2007 3:55pm

The public transport system is terrible in this country.The company I work for work a shift pattern and there is no public transport available to shift workers that start/finish at 6a.m or start/finish at 11p.m-hence the necessity of owning a car.We are taxed heavily on petrol and if a tax for breathing could be levied then the government of this country would apply it!

Posted by Alex Ferguson, 28th February 2007 3:55pm

With reference to #53 above, Steve I too am in a similar position... split from wife, have to move elsewhere to get a decent enough wage to be able to pay for the children, as a result I am 75 miles away from them. Collect on a Friday = 150 miles, return on a Sunday=150 miles - that soon mounts up.

Lucky for you that your ex wife meets you half-way - mine has delivered or collected them 5 times in 7 years!

So Prime Minister - if you want to stop parents from seeing their children, I'm sure this is a good route to follow... if however you want to maintain the good relationships many parents have with their children, desist from this please!

Posted by Richrd Owen, 28th February 2007 3:55pm

I'm afraid this is just onother way of getting money out of the long suffering motorist.
Were will it all end?

Posted by Remo Ferrone, 28th February 2007 3:55pm

I agree that public transport options need to be improved and expanded. Hopefully before the pro more stupid taxes lobby get their way. There are hundreds of thousand of people for whom the car is a requirement of the job. Anyone driving the tens of thousands of miles each year for work (note not just to and from the office!) will know that its great to put the feet up at the weekend and leave the car on the drive - so the comments that cars are a luxury item is for many of us simply not true. These additional costs will however not exclude us, so if it goes ahead l presume the do gooders will be more than happy to see the cost passed to us all by the companies involved. This is not just about cars. Its more about the goverment are raising their tax revenue in any way they can.

Posted by Paul Southam, 28th February 2007 3:56pm

If they are going to introduce a road use tax to drive people off the roads, then there has to be a feasible medium for those forced off the road to use in order to maintain their lifestyles. The transport infrastructure is inefficient as it currently stands, and given the scale of investment required in order to provide a feasible solution to road travel, is unlikely to change radically in the next 10 - 20 years and beyond, not least since other travel options are outwith the public purse. Ofcourse, since most travel is work related, there are other options that do not involve travel, such as remote working, perhaps the proposed tax will force companies to rethink strategies on that front, however those who can work from home tend to be the higher earners than those that can't. Property prices have forced teachers, nurses and some public sector workers to live some distance from their workplace as their salaries will not allow them to buy property where they work. Is it right slap on a double whammy in the form of road use tax, particularly when they have no choice but to travel by car ? In my view, get the transport links sorted out like the other major European nations first, give people a reasonable choice, they will probably make it without a new tax and all the costs associated in setting it up.

Posted by Mark Stewart, 28th February 2007 3:56pm

Germany has the best idea: They are taxed on their number plates. Road Fund Licence and Tax on Petrol is all inclusive, also MOT (TUV) in Germany is stamped on your number plate. All is visible and wo be tide you if you are caught without the stamp or the stamp is out of date. Mind you everything has to be paid at the same time, therefore you cannot balance it out over the year.
It is one person that is resposible for Road Tax, Insurance, Government Tax etc and that is you: your vehicle number plate is proof and Germany have 4 times the number of traffic police that we do do enforce the law, making it 4 times harder to evade any system that may be in place.

Posted by Malcolm Bulloch, 28th February 2007 3:56pm

It seems to me that the incredibly costly vehicle tracking and road pricing policy to reduce congestion on UK roads (like London's Congestion Charging ) will not do anything to relieve congestion. The apocryphal Ken Livingstone claim of 40% less congestion, has now been reduced to a more likely 9%.

But there are many non-charging ways to reduce Traffic Congestion. Let's try these:

Make employers pay the fares of employ workers who live more than 5 miles away.
Spread work start/finish times over 3 or 4 hours.
Encourage kids to walk, run or bike to school - as we did.
Make buses and trains free, and don't run them half empty
Ban taxis (they only carry people who are 'going somewhere' for 70% of the time).
Local Sourcing -- stop food and stuff being driven unnecessary miles.
Use the railways to transport goods (at night) and
Ban vehicles exceeding 10t gvw from all but motorways.
Enforce car sharing.

Can you add to this list? Go ahead!

Let's try all the other things and forget this unfair, and very expensive scheme that the motoring public won't tolerate.

====================

The more Congestion Charging zones you introduce the less congestion will be reduced. It's called the law of Diminishing Returns, I believe. Carrying that idea to its logical conclusion, once we've covered the whole British Isles with Charging Zones we'll be back at square one. Then, there's only one way to go; keep putting up the PRICE!

How do you measure traffic congestion? It's difficult to quantify, so its easy to lie about. A lot of congestion has actually been generated by recent Traffic Policies. Sometimes, unknowingly, and sometimes very deliberately!

I agree with Tony Blair when he said, "make the most of existing road network". Give back the full use of the existing roads and congestion will be reduced. Yes! Take away: road humps, kerb build-outs, road narrows, road blocks, deliberately mis-aligned junctions, extended traffic light periodicity, bus lanes, built-out bus stops, bendy buses, traffic calming (a great misnomer) and all those things that have forced local traffic out onto the 'bus routes' and congestion would be reduced. Unhindered roads = smooth flow!!

If Government really wanted to reduce traffic congestion these are the things they would attend to.

===================

I live close to the Congestion Charging Zone and noticed no difference when it was introduced; and none since the extension. I do not believe the high claims made for it, except claims of 'piles of cash'! But it's not a Stealth Tax - unless Stealth is part of the verb to STEAL !!!

Yours sincerely, Mr T Taylor.

Posted by Tony Taylor, 28th February 2007 3:56pm

Why did I vote against? For all the reason stated already;
1. Poor public transport outside cities (and sometimes in the cities)
2. The operational cost will wipe out the benefits and we will pay on top of fuel charges (remember the London congestion charge)
3, The Govt has never yet got a big computer system to work so why will this one be OK?
4.I think the percent of road duties re-invested is 25% which will not increase hugely because the money is too valuable to the chancellor for other pet projects
5. The best way is to invest in small schemes around the country but Govts don't do that - they like the "big idea" however impractical
6. It will cost businesses a great deal which will fuel inflation
7. Despite what they say, out of town businesses (not just retail parks) will suffer most.
8. It will have to be another spy system if they are to know where you are & how much to tax you and finally
9. I regret to say that I do not believe a word this Government says - and I don't trust them as far as I could throw them - so, for me, assurances are worth nothing.
PS Has anyone tried to reply to T Blair yet? I was going to but if it just disappears into a black hole then I won't bother. If however everyone writes back and says "Thanks, but its still a rotten idea" it may serve some purpose.

Posted by Alistair Muir, 28th February 2007 3:56pm

I would love to get a bus to work but it would mean a 30 minute walk to the bus stop and then a 45-60 minute bus ride and then a 10 minute walk to work. And thats if the bus turns up!

Or I can use the car and be there in 20 minutes! I'm sorry but I work long enough as it is without another 3 hours on my day stuck on a bus or walking in the rain! Oh and the added fact that it isn't exactly safe these days to walk around in the dark on your own!

A better idea would be to encourage employers to use car pools where possible and car pool lanes! Build safer cycle routes and in a city where they are currently trying to build tram lines everywhere build them to where people actually want to go!

Yes it is true that people will be more inclined to use public transport but to be honest without the rest of the world trying to cut down on emissions our efforts will be futile!

Posted by Ellie Brasier, 28th February 2007 3:56pm

Living in a rural area there is very little public transport and it is very expensive.

If the government want people to not use their cars then the infrastructure of cheap reliable public transport as an alternative has to be in place first.

Personally I do not believe that petrol tax and road tax would disappear I feel that the govenrment would have the other charges as an extra. I do not trust them to act on anyones best interest except their own.

Posted by Maureen Woodman, 28th February 2007 3:56pm

I think road pricing is a very bad idea because we already pay enough road tax each year as it is. It would also take away our privacy because you would always know were we are.

There are better ways to sort out the road congestion. Ban all trucks from using the roads during the day except builders trucks. All delivers should be made at night. Clamp down on all cars that don't have road tax and insurance. encourage people to use public transport by putting the high fairs down and improving the service. Do all road works at night.

Posted by Ian Ivan Martin, 28th February 2007 3:56pm

Sorry this is long one but please read it all the way before you dismiss it.

No one will deny the congestion problem harder to solve than finding the lottery numbers.

Juggernauts Lorry's & Legitimate Vans (JL&LV's) will never be replaced by rail.

It's to inflexible, slow and the goods still go the last part of the journey by road.

Make JL&LV's these vehicle journeys more efficient - major users who spend £millions per day on fuel are already as efficient as it is practical to get.

You could consider banning JL&LV's off certain roads at certain times (rush hours) but that's a NIMBY approach they still have to get there in the end.

That really leaves only the cars where there is a good possibility to reduce the volumes and thus the congestion.

The government proposal is a tracking system balanced by a reduction in other motoring taxes.

Who believes that?

Taxes from motoring are used for a wide variety of services unconnected with motoring so the tax coffers must be filled one way or another to fund these services.

Tracking systems - who would pay for these devices - probably the motorist.

We should all face the fact that we are going to have to pay more to use a car.

We mustn't pay more for the journeys of our JL&LV's these are essential to our well being and this would be only be passed on to us in the shops.

The best way to reduce the congestion is to increase fuel tax - the more miles you drive the more miles you pay - no un-necessary journeys - no monitoring devices no extra bureaucracy.

The best the easiest way but not simple and not always fair.

The tax would be collected as tax is now.

However owners of JL&LV's would need a mechanism for claiming the extra tax back - similar to the way VAT is claimed back - to avoid damage to the economy - inflation - and increases in the prices at the shops

You would have to ensure that JL&LV's drivers did not have access to these vehicles for private use or the drivers would have to pay a personal tax along the lines of company car tax.

You would also have to adjust the way personal tax is determined for company car users to ensure they pay the same as a private user.

We shouldn't allow companies to claim back fuel tax for cars used by "reps" if you want to reduce the road use put them in an office.

This is the age of technology not 40,50 or 60,000 miles per annum.

On the upside

The end result would be lower congestion and lower environmental damage - don't we all want a better environment..

On the downside

It will not bring in as much revenue as the governments proposal.

We need to improve public transport and make it safer for the passengers and crews - that will take time and money.

You would have to have a mechanism for people who work in isolated areas or unsocial hours etc who are forced to use a private car for work reasons. This should be an adjustment in the personal tax allowance in their income tax like a mortgage allowance deducted at source not as rebate against any fuel purchased.

Conclusion

It will reduce congestion it will not be 100% fair but it would be fairer, easier to apply and maintain than the government's proposal.

Posted by Paul Allen, 28th February 2007 3:56pm

p.s. (from 361). It would work to reduce congestion only if companies are penalised for the cost of their employees commuting during rush hour as well - otherwise your employer just tells you to turn up by 9am and you're stuffed! Trains are already half price after 9am, but that didn't help much, did it? Doesn't cost the employers a bean, so no incentive to make hours more flexible.

Posted by David N, 28th February 2007 3:56pm

This comment has been removed as it was found to be in breach of our Blog Policies.

DAVID L must live in a city or large town if he believes everyone can hop on to public transport to get around. Such selfish views will only alienate more car owners. Save us all more admin costs and simply increase fuel tax if roadusers are not paying enough. But if the argument for increases does not add up then everyone will get their own back at the next election.

Posted by Roy Ward, 28th February 2007 3:57pm

Bigger picture please! There is no going back! It's simply not going to happen. We have very intelligent people in this world we live in; lets find a forward thinking solution to this problem. There already exists technology to travel about without harming the environment and without compromising individual mobility. How about putting our energy into perfecting that instead of gripping at each other?

Posted by John Johnson, 28th February 2007 3:58pm

just a few observations in this endless tirade of taxing motorists via various means, "those who travel more should pay more", well they do, the more miles the more gallons bought. "tax to be removed from fuel and road fund in place of mileage charge" are you kidding, they will find a way to have it all. " it is all decided in Brussels" Of course it is, you voted it so by joining the EEC. "no matter which party is in power, it is the same" Of course it is, why is that? The people on here arguing for or against, I would like to believe are sensible people. Yet all of them have forgotten one thing, the government, are your employees, not vice versa. Unfortunately for the populace, and, luckily for the politicians,who know it well, that the people are happy to be led by the nose and do nothing. If you really want to make a change, take back the power and make it known that the people decide. Of course that will never happen, and so why even bother discussing anything, you are only working yourselves into an early heart attack.

Posted by John Cunneen, 28th February 2007 3:58pm

The principle of paying 'Road Tax as you go' would be a sensible one provided that the current Road Tax and Fuel Taxes are removed. Basically, those who drive the most miles should pay the most tax. I, like many others, have to pay road tax for my car that isn't used during the week as well as pay to use public transport to get to and from work. Another bonus would be the fact that the services of most, if not all, the civil servants at the DVLA could be dispensed with, saving the treasury a bit more money. But if, as I suspect, this is just another Government raid to fill the Treasury chest, it will be an additional tax rather than a replacement tax.
I also believe that at least 70 per cent of the revenue should be re-invested in the road and public transport system, which again, I think the Government would balk at.

Posted by Chris Morris, 28th February 2007 3:58pm

WHY TAX MOTORISTS WHY NOT TAX EVERYBODY IN THE COUNTRY INSTEAD.
WE USE OUR CARS BECAUSE THE TRANSPORT SYSTEM IS EXPENSIVE OUTDATED AND VERY HIT AND MISS. FROM NICE IN THE SOUTH OF FRANCE TO THE SKI SLOPES TO THE NORTH IS A 2 HOUR BUS RIDE AND COSTS 8 EUROS ON A PUBLIC BUS.
ON THE 20/12/06 I PAID £50.00 FOR 4 SAME DAY RETURN TICKETS TO BARCELONA FROM LIVERPOOL AIRPORT AT A COST OF £200. The weather prevented us from flying so i paid £58 for a day return ticket from wrexham to London at a total cost of £232.00. Bring the price of public transport down to allow everyone to travel. Everyone knows that the more you sell the cheaper things get. Get people to use the public sytem by firstly subsididing it with taxes and then reduce the taxes as people use the publis service more. That is if you can trust a politician to do that afterwards.

Posted by Andrew Lewiecki, 28th February 2007 3:59pm

I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOU LOT - I'M ALRIGHT JACK - I'VE GOT TWO JAGS AND A USELESS DEPARTMENT THAT ALL YOU MUGS ARE PAYING FOR.
YOU ALSO PAY FOR MY EXPENSIVE LIMO THAT I AM DRIVEN AROUND IN - IM A POLITICIAN - YOU KNOW I'M WORTH IT!!!!
ALL OF US POLITICIANS AND BUREAUCRATS ARE LAUGHING AT YOU LOT - WHEN WILL YOU PEOPLE EVER LEARN EH - SUCKERS!!!
I SIGNED THE PROTEST AS WELL - TONY STILL HASN'T REPLIED TO ME EITHER

Posted by Jay Presscott, 28th February 2007 3:59pm

Each year a Chancellor of the Exchequer announces various targets plus the Inflation Rate, which pensions have been linked to. Furthermore, irrespective of retirement age it is guaranteed that each one of us will become old and retire, thus to be assured that this scheme will not become a money generating revenue for any Government I feel that the Act should be inclusively passed whereby the Road pricing figures can only be raised by at least 50% less, than its own stated Inflation figures.

In addition, I would like to see a firm commitment that all people are judged as an equal i.e. all Government officials clam expenses. Therefore, expenses should be capped and all official people should pay any road charges, thus the need for short journeys or not car sharing would eat away at the persons own expense or at least limit that person elsewhere.

What's more the Underground has a system of zone pricing, so why has this type of system not been imposed on the road network within London; after-all London working is given a working allowance.

Finally, a few Cities have a combination of: an Underground system, a generous amount of regular buses and several train services so why if you can not get people in these areas not to use their own transport, why do you expect to have people not using theirs in areas without all those systems?

Sincerely yours a 48 year old motorist.

Posted by R Elkerton, 28th February 2007 3:59pm

I ride a scooter into work in Central London. Although I also have a larger motorcycle for longer rides, I do have a car. I use the car for "big" shopping trips and to visit family in the Midlands. I restrict the use of it to the bare minimum otherwise. If I have to use the train to work I do sometimes. It is no great deal unless in peak periods, which I avoid mostly as I work shifts. The whole concept of people using their cars all the time confuses me. Yes I understand the need for mobility for disabled people, but otherwise why would you want to sit in a stinking queue of traffic for hours? It takes me 30 - 45 mins. to travel in City traffic for 12 miles on the scooter.It would take 2 hours possibly more in the car. That would be a 16 hour day for me, on top of my 12 hour shift! LEAVE THE CAR AT HOME PEOPLE!! Or walk!!

Posted by Ian Stevens, 28th February 2007 4:00pm

This comment has been removed as it was found to be in breach of our Blog Policies.

I drive to work because it takes me 1 hour instead of 2 hours each way on the London Transport. 2 hours a day over 5 day week is 10 hours extra, to take tubes it would be like working extra day and a half a week. I already pay tax, and tax on taxes and cannot pay any more. I feel that this goverment is taking the easiest route out - lets make people pay, that will stop them. Why don't they do something for us for a change with all the money they collect?

Posted by I Hickey, 28th February 2007 4:01pm

I think that we need to make the people who do big mileage or who drive big cars pay the most, but a "pay as you go system" is far to complicated and expensive. We should do away with Road Fund Tax altogether. Vehicles should display a dated MOT Disc instead (showing end of month in which MOT expires. and extra tax should be put on fuel. This would encourage people to be more economical, would stop the people driving without tax, identify if MOT is still valid and not unecessarily penalise the pensioner who only uses the car to pop down to the shops once a week.

Posted by Peter Griffin, 28th February 2007 4:01pm

This comment has been removed as it was found to be in breach of our Blog Policies.

This labour government are taking us soft brits for a ride, green taXes are just an excuse to get more money out off us

Posted by William Dick, 28th February 2007 4:02pm

if any tax at all, it should be on fuel so that the more one drives, the more one pays. with a subsidsy on road transport

Posted by Alan Carr, 28th February 2007 4:02pm

It's not that long ago that politicians of a different political hue were telling us to stop being lazy and get on our 'bikes' to look for work.I've done that: my 'bike' being a Mitsubishi Carisma as my work is 37 miles away.Now I'm not only being hammered by fuel tax and VAT, I'm also to be charged per mile to get there and a £6 daily congestion charge to enter the city in which I work.And my employer wants to charge me for parking too.And before anyone suggests it, I can't move nearer to my job as this would mean my wife (who has a better job) then having to comute the other way round.
These stupid politicians think we all live in London and have access to the underground (even if that were safe).
Why not try flexible working times ?.Everyone doesn't have to work 9 to 5.What about 10 til 6, 11 til 7, 12 til 8 etc.But it's not really about congestion/pollution is it ?.It's about £££'s and control.And getting the poor people off the road so that the rich can get about freely.

And to the first person's question as to where the government is going to get the money from to pay for the roads we want if it doesn't charge us by the mile....WELL WHY NOT FLIPPIN WELL USED THE MONEY ALREADY RAISED FROM MOTORISTS THAT DOESN'T GET SPENT ON THE ROADS - ALL £40 BILLION OF IT !!!.

Posted by Noel Hanna, 28th February 2007 4:02pm

What about the millions of people who have 2 abodes, 1 in UK, 1 or more outside. at present, they probably register, tax and insure a car in the UK. But with UK road use being taxed, many will surely change their annual routine so that they can register, tax and insure in the other country, and use the UK roads for nothing when they come to the UK for their 6 months Summer away from the deprivations of cheap wine and fresh food.

Also genuine foreigners will presumably not have to pay £400-£500 for the gubbins to enable Gordon to automatically send them tax bills for their road use when in this country, so they'll use our roads for nothing whereas we'll carry on paying for using their autoroutes.

So the rest of us will be subsidising the others even more than we are at the moment.

Posted by Christopher Jpohns, 28th February 2007 4:03pm

I don't think the present road fund licence need apply to transport more then 25 years old, whoever set the 1973 cut off point needs to rethink the 25 year limit.

The road fund licence may be linked to mpg, the more mpg the less poad tax to be paid.

Posted by David Lidiard, 28th February 2007 4:03pm

I think we can all agree that Public transport is nowhere reliable enough for us all to stop using our cars.

The new proposed road taxing would make it more expensive for everyday motorists? It would eventually make it so that only the wealthy can use cars.

I'm all for finding greener solutions, but why does everything involve a "pay up or stop using it" attitude, which this new tax is asking us.

Posted by Dominic Savage, 28th February 2007 4:04pm

Taxing a person per mile is already happening. We pay the duty at the pumps.

I will never use public transport until it can do the following:

1. Pick me up exactly when I need it.
2. Pick me up exactly where I need it.
3. Drop me off exactly where I want to be.
4. Take the same time to arrive at my destination (or quicker).
5. Guarantee me a seat.
6. Guarantee to be clean.

As this is NEVER going to happen, my solution for the congestion problem is to higher the age a person is allowed to drive from 17 to 25.

(I'll get my tin hat on)

Posted by Larry Batman, 28th February 2007 4:04pm

Most people do not live and work in London were the public transport system takes you nearer than 300mtres to your place of work, your home, or leisure activity. Many of us live in cities where there is no the tube to jump on and off of and where serveral buses don't use the same route. People who live in the counrty can at best expect a bus every hour or two not every few minutes, there are no trains or tubes; what are we expect to do in this great revalution towards public transport. what about those of us who can't walk the distances to the bus stop, or stand in all whethers waiting for a bus.

As usual the South and able bodied are trying to force their own ideals down our throats; from 'love a huddy' to 'you will use public transport' .

Isn't it about time electric solar powered cars were encouraged; I believe this technowlogy was developed at around the Suis crisis, but further developement did not take place due in the main to capitalist interests in oil. Solar energy would allow us to go on using our cars without offending all the 'green' priciples.

Posted by Barbara Bell, 28th February 2007 4:04pm

To 388 Ian Stevens:

Its ok for you to say PEOPLE LEAVE YOUR CARS AT HOME! I live in the country...we dont have public transport like you do in London!

Another ignorant person........!

Posted by Julie Parnell, 28th February 2007 4:04pm

This comment has been removed as it was found to be in breach of our Blog Policies.

Public transport is great, assuming that they more frequent, reliable, clean and capable of taking us where a car would normally take us.

I used to travel 15 miles to work, and in a traffic jam, took about an hour. If I took public transport, I would need to take a bus into town-15 mins, then a train into Manchester-20 mins, then I need to get the tram out of Manchester-25 mins and then 5 mins walk to work. This is assuming I dont need to wait for a bus/train/tram and no delays! Buses are every half hour near me, and trains every 20 mins into Manchester, then upto 20 mins for a tram. Best case is about 1.5 hrs to get to work, worst case is probably around 2.5 hrs! If I didnt need to goto work, then I will be quite happy to spend 25 hours a week on public transport! Oh, and did I tell you that I used to have 3 bus routes going past my house and now there is only 1????

What we have to remember is that it is the Transport people who dreams up these ideas, then if it does go ahead, then they get their big fat pay cheque and bonus, but at the same time, will be stuffing other departments who, for example, want to promote a better family life. Sounds like a bit of a disjointed agenda to me.

Has the government ever considered those people who MUST drive to work due to extremely poor public transport? And for those people on low or average income, having pay per mile in mile will probably mean that they need to quit their jobs, then unemployment will increase, theft will go up etc etc. Or how about if it costs 25p a mile (sorry, dont know the actual proposed cost) to drive on a motorway, and people will continue to drive, but will prefer to pay the 3p a mile to drive on the smaller "quieter" road, therefore its moved the congestion from the motorway to single lane residential streets. I know I would, and I know the government would if the money came out of their own pocket!

All in all, my point is that this has not thought out, and as usual, they have not looked at the bigger picture. Average Joe Bloggs driver who needs to drive to work as their commute doesn't exactly do it by choice...... what it all means is that the problem will get moved elsewhere........

Posted by D Chung, 28th February 2007 4:04pm

I signed. But only because my company has no flexi hours and I drive 100 miles a day round trip. In principal its a good idea, but the costs involved are ridiculous and government is incapable of running any IT scheme.

Posted by Tom, 28th February 2007 4:05pm

I signed the petition because I dont want to be told when and how I should live. I pay enough in taxes as it is and if I chose to drive then so be it. If the goverment wanted us to use the buses etc then they would give us the incentive by making fares cheaper. As it is I dont have that option because I live in whats known as rural areas and therefore buses are like rocking horse droppings. I start work around 0400 am and public transport doesnt start in my village before 0730 am. Our train service is a non starter as we have to use the buses because there is always a fault with Network Rail, need I go on??. Lose the car tax and put the price of fuel up a bit, so the TAX DODGERS get caught as well. Its those of us who run legal that pay the dodgers to run about illegally. My partner runs the kids to school, yes she could walk but we pay our taxes so why should we. In our days at school, we never had the problem of cars running the kids to and fro, but time goes on, like we should do. Forget your tracking and more taxes Mr Blair and sort out public transport, because until you do nobody will help you.

Posted by Alex Roddie, 28th February 2007 4:05pm

In responce to Una I have yet to see any government change a tax system without it being an increase. I do not beleive that any improvement to the public transport system would be able to cope with the increase in travellers if we were all taken of the road. Surely you can also see that at present the driver who travels more pays more by the fuel duty increase that was stealthly brought in by Mr Brown. Unfortunately I beleive this is another way of getting more money from the motorist. What we need is a better road system, not more old buses polluting the atmosphere or trains where you can't get a seat and have to stand for miles or planes that seem to be immune from any increase in duty and do more poluting of the atmosphere on a single trip from London to New York than I do with my car in a year. I am afraid that global warming is here not because of cars but by nature just taking its course. I think governments should be taking action on countries such as China, India and Russia before they hit the motorist. The action against the motorist in my opinion is a knee jerk action to obtain future votes from people like youself.

Posted by Bill Wright, 28th February 2007 4:06pm

I would have liked the opportunity to sign the petition but didn't know how or where it was?

Posted by Barbara Goodhew, 28th February 2007 4:06pm

Lets be honest this really is not about the environment its about tax but no government is going to admit that. Unfortunatley we have a government who's modus operandi is to tax or fine anything as a way of raising extra revenue to plug the gap of mismanagment.

On a practical level I travel extensivley here is an example from yesterday. I live in the Peak District had a meeting at 7.30am in Burnley, from Burnley to Huddersfield, then Birmingham and home.

Please just look at my options for public transport to carry out my working day and you will quickly see I could not achieve this let alone the massive difference in cost, and there is in my view the real reason.

Travel by car is significantly cheaper than public transport particularly when the numbers per car increase so I believe the government se an oppotunity to tax this as a new revenue stream. After all if this were not the case should they not have announced that all tax raised by any scheme would be used to bring down costs of public transport so that travel whatever public mode was cost neutral in real terms. There thinking is to increase the cost of the lowest up to the highest.

Public transport is a joke I suggest ministers actually try and use it as the general public have to.

There really are shades of Gorge Orwells Animal Farm with New Labour 'we are all equal but some of us are more equal than others'

At a time when they preach 'green responsibility' Ministerial car usage was at its highest level ever last year.

I rest my case

Posted by Pks, 28th February 2007 4:06pm

NO !!! The government makes enough money off us without more tax. This big brother lark has gone far enough with out any more legislation being thrust on us. My son is going to Canada soon to live and I dont blame him at all. This place is knackered now !!

Posted by Ian Macleod, 28th February 2007 4:06pm

Don't use my car use public transport say the goverment. My car was in for a service last month & the garage i use is on the bus route to my work, this route claims on the side of the bus that a bus will be there every 10 mins or better on the way back from the garage (approx 9.30) it took 25 mins for a bus to arrive. On the way to collect my car 45 mins i waited before a bus arrived. How would i judge what time i would need to leave home to get into work for 9am & what time would i finally get home. I have no faith in the public transport to deliver the service required to make me leave my car at home.

Posted by Mark Weaver, 28th February 2007 4:06pm

It is great for people like David L. to post comments like "get out of your cars and onto public transport" - what public transport for those that live in rural areas. Old Beeching in the 60's put pay to any hopes of rail travel and even then - could we afford it? Endless taxes, raising funds out of motorists from how far we travel to what sort of car we use. Are there any proposals to tax all the lorries that come and use (and wear out our roads) - I travel in the early hours of the morning - most of the vehicles I see are from overseas. Cynical old me - Gordon wants to tax us "easy targets"..........

Posted by Jean Stone, 28th February 2007 4:06pm

This comment has been removed as it was found to be in breach of our Blog Policies.

Obviously David L and Una B live in an area which has public transport on hand. You people with tunnel vision make me sick. I travelled 40 miles each way to work before I had to retire through ill health and the hours I worked were unsociable hours eg; shift work which would make it impossible for me to use public transport, that is if there were any available. You may say why did I not move closer to work, well I spent 35 years with my company and was transfered 5 times in that time to different branches.
Where I live there is only two buses a day like many thousands of other people in the UK. It would take me about four hours and as many changes in transport to travel the 40 miles of course that would be by day, but night I would have to walk home or ride a bike.
A lot of the problem is people were encouraged to travel longer distances to work by past and present governments.
Should we use public transport to shop at Supermarkets..if so how on earth would we carry a dozen or more bags of shopping on them, again the problem is caused by the powers that be with out of town shopping areas and the small shops being forced out of business, over the years every ones way of life has been forced to change, and nobody took into account the problems we are facing today.
A lot of congestion is actually caused deliberatley by councils by making it difficult to park at your journey end also having taffic lights out of synch,
David Hutchins is absolutley correct.. only a tiny fraction of Road Taxes and fuel tax is spent on our roads the rest is used for other purposes, the money we car drivers pay we should have the finest network of roads in the world...come and live at our village where there are miles and miles of roads with thousands of potholes and blocked up drains and some occasions two feet of water for several hundred yards....imagine if one was to walk these roads you would have to wade through this water.Should I have to pay to use these roads also I pay £2000 a year council tax...for what.. a third rate service.
So you people with chips on your shoulders, who are so against cars and their drivers I suggest you get into the real world where real people live, perhaps then you may change your selfish and self opinionated views.
Another thought is ..why should the car driver pay for a better public transport service??? I say put up the fares to raise money to pay for it, how would the anti car people feel if we car drivers were subsidised by them......it works both ways

Posted by Leighton Jenkins, 28th February 2007 4:08pm

We run a driving school , how will this tax affect our business?

People have been paying more and more road tax and Fuel prices, year on year, surely all those millions already collected can be used more effectively. I dont believe that all the revenue that has been raised by the means of Tax and Fuel Tax has been put back solely into the improvement of the roads.

Alo think about the VAT you pay when you buy your car initially, unless you are VAT registered that is another tax you have to pay!

I wonder if someone has actually worked out how much tax you already pay to use the roads. Tax on Fuel / Road Tax / Congestion charges / Toll Roads / VAT on new Cars etc etc

Posted by Donna Sumner, 28th February 2007 4:08pm

Well if you live in a high congested area its not your fault, and most of the traffic is just down to poor road layout, and public transport.

Posted by Mark Maggs, 28th February 2007 4:08pm

Well if we stoped wasting our money on "Non English people" we might be able to afford to look after ourselfs for a change!

Posted by Mr Nigel Smith, 28th February 2007 4:09pm

This comment has been removed as it was found to be in breach of our Blog Policies.

I work too far away to cycle (which I'd love to do), not close enough to walk but if public transport were more frequent and less expensive I would use that.
If I use the bus I wold have to use two busses to get to work and sit on a bus which goes all over the place to service as much area as they can on one route, getting home feeling very sickly. If I use the train I would require two trains but they only stop at my destination twicea day. My job is not 9 to 5 therefore I would be stuck trying to get home.

Public transpot is the key to geting us out of our cars. Not taxes which would just make us uanble to afford to get to work.

Posted by Diane Riley, 28th February 2007 4:10pm

Dear lefty tree huggers,
A car is not always a luxury item. As a single parent having to work a full day and get to after school clubs etc on time a car is the only mode of transport I can use. Imagine this, my train arrives at the station at 1747hrs, my children need picking up at 1800hrs, the journey takes 9 mins. Impossible for me to Q for unreliable transport that I must already endure prior to this section on my journey. I can understand the need for people to cut down on unnecessary use but lets not get too disjointed from reality.
Also worth pointing out that the governments main concerns are the European handouts that'll no doubt be issued to green members. That combined with increasing revenue from motorists is all too tempting.

Posted by Stewart Vennells-guyan, 28th February 2007 4:10pm

hello readers, my name is michael and i have been driving my car now for 22 years and all this time i have been paying road tax to the goverment to keep our roads well maintained? well you would think that wouldent you. the thing is if you travel around the country like i do then you will be in for a nasty shock, as every where you go there is some kind of road works going on. and when you pass the road workers they always seem to be doing nothing at all. and if i was charged for every mile that i do then i would be in trouble financialy, as i usually travel from staffordshire to toulon in france every week. it would cost me more than my £185.00 a year car tax. so if you are one of the peaple who wants this travel tax, please spare a thought for the peaple like me who travel a long way to work. thank you all for reading this.

Posted by Michael Parker, 28th February 2007 4:10pm

Questions I would like an answer to.
1. Why are cars built to drive well over 70 mph when there is nowhere in the country where they can legally be driven over that speed?
2. Now we have satallite tracking, why can't it be linked into the elecronic ignition to prevent speeding?
3. Why is there not a greater incentive to drive smaller engined, small cars? They take up less room, use less fuel and cause less harm in an accident.
4. Why are we so obsessed with having all the frills in our cars? They add weight, cost more and use more resources.
5. Why do so many adverts for cars talk of bringing the fun into driving as if they were toys? Driving is a serious business and should be treated as such.

I don't want to appear as a killjoy, but I am willing to accept limitations to my driving experience rather than loose my car altogether.

Posted by John Leach, 28th February 2007 4:10pm

As a driving instructor any new taxes are going to kill me and my pocket, just seems yet another easy way to strangle the car owner. Would"nt mind if the extra money raised was put back in to omprove the local road network, but that just ain"nt going to happen

Posted by Ray Cottrell, 28th February 2007 4:11pm

The comments by David L make me think he is an old & non driver? I'm a Rep and well past my sell by date (still working) and the public will pay more for all products because we will pass it on. Road tax is about £190.00 per annum and this should be used for road puposes only. We would soon see an improvement. Wake up David and smell the Petrol/Diesel

Posted by Ed Bevan, 28th February 2007 4:11pm

At the present time I would not be able to get to work without an hour and a journey each way by public transport. At present it takes me 20 minutes in the car.

Bus services are being withdrawn in my area and until the government addresses a reliable and viable public transport system, they should not consider bringing in this road pricing as this will penalise people in my situation.

There are also disabled people who are on a fixed income due to their disability and these people will also be penalised further and could effectively leave them housebound. There was a door to door on demand bus service in my mother's area and this has now been withdrawn, so a lot of disabled and elderly would not even have that option

Posted by Marcia, 28th February 2007 4:12pm

Comment 75 - If anyone has these figures send them to me please stewartvg@gmail.com

Posted by Stewart Vennells-guyan, 28th February 2007 4:13pm

There's no point protesting if you do not suggest a better alternative.
The traffic problems need to be sorted somehow and hitting peoples wallets seems to be the only way to achieve anything.
Decent public transport, including for the school run, will mean that the road charges will be minimal as people will rely less on cars.
I understand that the disabled often rely on cars, but surely the disabled will be subsidised.
Idealistic, i know, but what's wrong with wanting to live in an ideal world. We have to start somewhere.

Posted by Peter Jamieson, 28th February 2007 4:13pm

If I could afford it I would leave the UK and live elsewere were you don't get tax for breathing....................

Posted by Mr Nigel Smith, 28th February 2007 4:13pm

This comment has been removed as it was found to be in breach of our Blog Policies.

This appears to me to be the thin end of the wedge, just like water meters and congestion charges. Road tax is high and most governments would like to see it higher just to increase revenue. Unfortunately for them it is a very visible tax, so introducing a new method of revenue collection will enable future increases in revenue which are not so transparent. At the moment anyone can simply calculate the number of vehicles on the road and know that the money is not ploughed back into the road network but goes to the exchequer.
As for using cars or public transport, this is still a matter of personal choice and I hope it contiues to be so. We pay for the convenience and the pleasure of motoring, so lets not legislate away this freedom.

Posted by Mike Honey, 28th February 2007 4:13pm

I am surprised at the comments posted so far, congestion charging in whatever form has very little to do with reducing traffic volumes, helping the environment or anything else the goverment have declared. In simple terms it is a fund raiser to assist the goverment in filling the black hole in the countries accounts sold to us under the "Green" banner, it is a stealth tax.

The goverement hope we continue to drive the way we do now so as to maximise the income, i do not see and MP's riding bikes (especially 2 jags) or walking or using public transport. Before a tax is put in place the public transport system should be radically reviewed and updated. I live in a rural village where, if we are lucky, we will see a bus 2 or 3 times a week. My nearest bus stop is 2 miles from my front door, this is a long walk for a bus that probably won't turn arrive.

It is not possible for me to do my job without a car, I travel to many sites which by design are away from urban areas, my only option would be to use a taxi which will provide no environmental benefits at all.

One simple solution with lower setup costs would be to scrap congestion charging and road tax and increase the tax on petrol, therefore the more you drive the more you pay equally range rovers and x5's which use more petrol will pay more for it?

I best stop now as I'm starting to rant, to date the goverment have not asked the public what we want, it is the same as the european referrendum "they will never ask" or listen to the public.

Posted by Steve Mcmullan, 28th February 2007 4:14pm

I live 25 miles from work, live 5 miles from the nearest train station and the busses run every 2 hours. I don't think it's particulaly unfair or indeed socially unaceptable for me to drive. Anyway, even if i did manage to use public transport it's more expensive that actually driving!

Posted by Paul, 28th February 2007 4:15pm

This comment has been removed as it was found to be in breach of our Blog Policies.

It is a very expensive means to control traffic. The collection of the charges is going to a nightmare. It will be more hopeless than pool tax and it will suffer the same faith as poll-tax.

It might be set-up for some stupid reasons, but it will be scrapped within 2 years. It will not work.

Posted by Philip Adeyelu, 28th February 2007 4:15pm

Driving is a personal choice and this year I will probably make it my choice, at age of only 53 to give up my car. Why? Because I won't be able to afford it that's why. This government does not give one hoot what we say about car taxes etc. Public transport is a disgrace and I will argue with anyone who says different. I travel a lot on the bus in my home city and it costs a fortune... Example: To city centre/return, approximately 6 miles, cost £3.20. To take my car AND park for 2 hours, (Diesel engine) approximately £2.50. My car takes me from A to B, the bus does not. It's unreliable, smelly, uncomfortable, staff are more often than not impolite! So where do we go from here? It has been said many times before about 'using public transport', 'car sharing' (that's a laugh). When will this government admit it, 'IT DOESN'T & WILL, NEVER WORK'.
I am on a weekly budget through illness, I won't be able to afford a car or public transport at this rate so I will be stuck indoors, is that fair?
"All for one and one for all", yeah right!

Posted by Richard Mainwaring, 28th February 2007 4:15pm

Road Tax and tolls should be abolished if the tax was added on the petrol every one would pay as they used their car which would be much fairer

Posted by David Cree, 28th February 2007 4:15pm

My, there are some strange people in this blog! How comforting it must be to know that you are the only unselfish ones on the planet. As a basic principle, I do not want to be told how to run my life, not by Blair, not by envious people, not by Una B. I an law-abiding to a fault, which means any legislation affects me more than some others, because I obey it.

Before retirement, I was a director of a company in Barnet, while living at Markyate, near St. Albans. My daily journey was 23 miles each way, and the only roads were the M1 and the A6, both heavily congested. These are the sort of roads that are presumably going to attract the top rate of tax, mooted at £1.28 per mile at peak. Like most working people, I had to travel at peak times, and as I also needed to be ready to go out at any time during the day, and waste as little time as possible, naturally I had to have a car. That journey would have cost me £16957.44 per annum, just for going to work. Plus, of course, any extra journeys visiting customers and suppliers etc., often at short notice. I was not alone in using these roads, of course, since the reason they were, and are, crowded is that they are necessary. How can a working man even begin to afford such ridiculous charges? For some, it would have been more than they earned. Just once, when my car was in for service, I decided to go to work on the bus. I waited 45 minutes for one to turn up, in a snowstorm, as it happened, and the journey took over an hour, on roads which were by this time, fairly clear. I haven't used a bus since, as indeed, nor would any other intelligent person in the same circumstances. As for the Spy in the Sky aspects, Una B may feel confident that she would never dream of exceeding a speed limit, but we mortals do sometimes find ourselves a mile or two over the limit, especially when passing something, since road safety decrees that you don't spend all your time watching the speedometer. The Spy would record these transgressions, and we could expect a bill for speeding and a point or three on our licences. If road pricing prevented congestion, who would take advantage of it? The poorer people? No - they would be priced off the road, and probably out of a job to boot. So the roads would be just for the rich, and company supported drivers, just as the third lane on the M4 is just for Blair and his colleagues. I actually do approve of charging for use of the roads proportionately to mileage, and the best and most obvious (not to our Chancellor, of course) way to do this is by the fuel tax, which should replace all other road and motoring taxes. It won't cure congestion, but nothing ever will. As some unthinking person in the government recently bleated 'If we build more roads, people will just fill them up'. Not much gets past him, does it? That's why we are in this fix now. Of course, to be fair, lorries and commercial vehicles should be taxed off the roads too. We all benefit from the roads, whether we personally drive on them or not, and they are both irreplaceable and indispensable.

Posted by David Kelsey, 28th February 2007 4:16pm

i live in an area that is not served well by public transport therefore it is vital i have my own transport, which is only used as necessary, for work and shopping. i also run a motor scooter and use this as often as i can instead of the car.
i welcome any idea that will reduce vehicle emissions and even the number of cars on the road.
perhaps we should look at those people who drive large cars but have only themselves in it. is it really necessary to be driving a Jag to the shops with only yourself in it? perhaps we should be encouraged to buy smaller?
what about increasing the cost of fuel and abolishing car tax? this would mean that those who use their vehicles more often will pay a higher price. perhaps that would stop people from jumping in their cars to drive a few yards. it may also encourage people to downsize. it would also stop the tax dodgers. i know there must be flaws in this idea but it is worth a mention.
i think more people would use public transport if they were cleaner, more accessible and good value for money. the times i have chosen to use buses, trains etc have not proved very successful as they are often overcrowded and do not have a particularly pleasant environment. i do not find it enjoyable listening to other peoples music/telephone conversations/personal life when travelling.
anyway, thanks for listening to my moan. it is nice to see people are so passionate about this subject for whatever reason.

Posted by Chris Wills, 28th February 2007 4:16pm

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