22.08.06 Would you buy a hybrid car?
Will your next car be a hybrid car?
With the price of petrol on a seemingly relentless rise, it may be a good time to switch cars to something a little bit more frugal. We have just published a guide to green cars that tells you everything you need to know from hybrid vehicles to hydrogen fuel cells.
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I already have a hybrid (Toyota Prius) and it's the best car I have owned for a lot of reasons. My main purpose in selecting the Prius was to save money as a big chunk of my weekly budget goes on fuel. I need a fairly large car and if you take the trouble to get inside the Prius you will be surprised. The leg room in the rear seats being better than all but the very largest cars and it even beats a few of them. To get the best out of a Hybrid, you need to being doing journeys of at least 15 minutes. This is because when the car is 'cold' it biases the usage to the combustion engine. However from there-on its magic. My summer fuel consumtion has been consistently better than 57 mpg although its a little less in winter. The car is extremely fun to drive and is one of the least polluting vehicles on the road. The way it switches the combustion engine off when waiting at traffic lights and yet instantly glides away when you touch the accelerator is amazing. Finally for those who are still uneducated with respect to hybrids - you don't have to plug it in! It charges the battery both from the combustion engine and the regenerative brakes. Go test drive one!
unfortunately, as an aged pensioner, most of my journeys are within a ten mile area. The only time I travel further is to visit my family in London, Kent and Sussex and the cost of investing in a hybrid would make it impossible for me to travel anyway. Suspect the majority of people would like to 'convert' but will have to wait until the prices come down.
I love the idea, but I'm not so sure about their environmentaly friendly status. While they are green on the road (although 57mpg stated by Phil is not amazing, a small car would do that sort of figure?) what about the making of and desposing of the batteries? How often do the batteries need to be replaced. How much do they weigh? etc.....
Mind you, I would love one, from an engineering point of view I think it's a fantastic idea.
I already drive one of the cars listed in your "Guide to Green Cars", a VW Touran 1.9TDI S. I need the load carrying ability and the occasional 6th and 7th seats are also essentials for me. As soon as a similar sized vehicle with 7 seats comes out in a hybrid version, then yes, my next car will be a hybrid. Until then, no.
I have a diesel car and consistently get 55mpg out of it - doing 100+ miles a day - mainly motorway. My car cost £13K, the Prius costs upwards of £17K. Where's the saving ???
I'm not sold on the whole Hybrid thing. I do 100 miles a day and my next move will be a used LPG car. The used price difference between a petrol car and its equivalent LPG counterpart is very little (often less than £500). However, used hybrids are still a lot pricier than the petrol equivalent. I understand the Green factor of a hybrid but doing 100 miles a day (privately - not in a company car), the cost fo the fuel is my highest priority and I feel the saving of LPG easily outweights a hybrid.
I think the cost of buying a hybrid car is too expensive, and at the moment choice in models is limited. I drive around 800miles a week, and had my petrol car converted to run on LPG, conversion cost was £1,500 from an approved installer, the tank is under the car so I still have the boot. Performance is the same under LPG as with petrol, I got to keep my existing car and ill have paid off the conversion through cheaper fuel in about a year! My LPG costs 39.9p a litre and petrol is 96.9p a litre currently. As long as the govt. keep the duty off LPG im more than prepared to put up with planning my fuel stops to save £150+ a month on fuel.
The Prius has not entered my mind as a purchase option because it is UGLY! The Lexus RX400h may have been feasible, but SUVs are not my bag - plus the Sunday Times did an interesting article comparing the Merc ML270CDI with the 400h and the Merc won on lower cost of motoring... Likely to stick with my BMW 520d or similar until hybrid cars get pretty - with a enormous tank (last fillup was 62 litres), I can get 600 mile plus range at over 45mpg on a long run.
I am amazed at how many people are being misled about the hybrid cars. When I read glowing articles I am always supsicious of who is writing them because I prefer to believe the professiosal writers who in the main are all against them. The Prius is very expensive for its size and peformance which on the open road is pathetic. There is some use for it in town centres [not subuirbs] but what a cost.
It seems little known that the batteries have a limited life with guarantee running out afte 3 iyears. They are estimated to last 4 years but when they need replaceing be prepared for a very high cost about £4000.
My comments are not against using economical cars but if anyone wants this badly then buy the special diesel version of the Ford Focus or look a the Honda Jazz. Note these have amazing figures are nice cars to drive and have a superb performance on all types of roads.
All the time this obesseon over hybrids goes on Toyoto are laughing all the way to the bank. There is a stong feeling that if you say something long enough and so many times people will think its strue.
If you want a car to hold every body up, which has vertully no value after 4 years, costs about £6000 more than what you need to pay then buy one.
Hybrids - what a waste of space! Diesel engines are more fuel-efficient, cost less and are less complex. Typical manufacturer hype preying on the green welly brigade of idiots.
As an aside the government have got it all wrong. No-one is going to give up personal transportation once they have enjoyed the benefit. They should stop pretending that they can tax people away from personal transportation. The only answer is for cars to become smaller and much more fuel efficient. Anything larger than Smart size is unnecessary. Anything over 1,000cc is unnecessary too.
I agree with Jeremy above. I get 58 mpg average out of a 3 year old diesel zafira with careful driving. This is a seven seater, larger and cheaper than a Prius and mechanically simpler and therefore inherently more reliable. The new conventional Hondas are amazingly frugal. The real hybrid joke is the Lexus offroader which just uses hybrid technology to increase its low speed torque. It is about time the manufacturers paid more than lip service to economy and started to promote this as a selling point. There is no reason why a small engined diesel hybrid car with sensible performance (why is 0-60 important for city driving?) could not do 100 mpg + with current technology. The buying public just need to be persuaded to buy it (or priced out of buying guzzlers)
In answer to Jake's questions about batteries, they don't need replacing for at least 8 years, if not longer. The guarantee does not run out after 3 years, as stated by D. Carter - as part of the hybrid drive system they are covered by an 8 year warranty.
A couple more comments need correcting - performance on the open road is great, far better than any of the cars I've previously had, and as for residual values I checked this out 18 months ago on the first generation Prius and resale price were consistently 5-10% higher than for similar sized and priced conventional cars.
LPG is the best way to go if you are doing the miles
i saved around £5000 over a 3 year period running a 2 ltr vectra.
Now running a Vectra diesel 150 bhp returning 55mpg
I wouldn't buy a hybrid as I have had 6 diesels over last 15 years. They have been very frugal and when towing caravan still managed over 40mpg. Current car is Peugeot partner as I need extra high doors as wife is disabled and has rotating seat and we need that extra headroom to enter. This regularly returns over 52 mpg.
It is only petrol heads like clarkson that give diesels a bad press as modern ones are cleaner and more efficient than petrol.
Why do diesels not qualify for the same category of efficiency saving on road tax as petrol cars? Is there anyone in dept of transport who looks at the facts and not the pro petrol motorin press?
MPG is only one part. Tax for high CO2 vehicles is only going to get higher (some recommendations say £2,500 for the top band which my SAAB falls into).
Purchase costs put me off a hybrid at the moment but I would be very surprised if my next car in 3 years time wasn't a hybrid as I expect costs to plummet.
I find it infuriating that we are constantly taxed at a higher and higher level on our fuel while the American motorist pays half of what we do. Getting them to reduce their use by 20% would be like us reducing by over 100%.
Lot of misinformation about hybrids here. The Prius battery is guaranteed for 8 years in the UK, 10 in parts of the USA. Virtually none have needed replacing. Performance on the open road is fine, better than I expected and it will beat most cars from the lights, thanks to its electric booster rocket.
Nor is it expensive. The top of the range model, the T-Spirit is currently quoted at £18607 by drivethedeal which I think compares favourably with equivalent cars such as an Avensis or a Passat diesel (my last car). NO diesel is cleaner than a Prius, which (for instance) has zero NOx and zero particulate emissions.
I have had a Prius for 2 1/2 years now and have a lifetime average of 58mpg, better than a Smart car. I will never again buy a car so stupid it doesn't even know when to turn its engine off.
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In a word, no, I wouldn't buy a hybrid, they are too heavy! Until a TRUE diesel-electric hybrid becomes available, I will stick to conventional diesel power.
I have access to two diesel cars, the one I use most is a Toyota Yaris. The best I have recorded for a tank of fuel is 74 mpg, calculated by the "tank-brimming" technique.
Over some 30,000 miles I have only recorded less than 62mpg per tank-full on one occasion. I will work out how much these 30,000 miles have cost in fuel: I have kept all the fuel receipts.
Has anybody heard of the VW Lupo 3L TDI, the SEAT Arosa 3L TDI or the Audi A2 3L TDI? No, I thought not! The 3L refers to the official EU combined fuel consumption figure of 3litres per 100km, which is equivalent to 100mpg. These three cars all gave 100mpg on the combined cycle, and a Lupo set the world record when it went around the world at over 115mpg, with a section best of 144mpg. I think it's a disgrace that there was never any incentive to import these to Britain, and sadly these cars are no longer made. They never sold very well, and Greenpeace were incensed when they were told that a "dirty" diesel was the world's first production car to acheive the sacred figure of 100mpg. I tried to get one, but VW UK were no help, and I didn't want the hassle of importing spares, etc.
We must bear in mind that the true-life consumption figures are almost always below the oficial figures: can Prius or other hybrid car owners tell us how well their vehicles perform? I've read and heard that they can actually be poor, with only 40mpg on the motorway, due to the heavy weight of the battery pack.
I just wish to add to the above comment which I entirely agree with,just had my full comprehensie insurance quote for my prius t spirit--£198 with prot bonus that coupled with the road tax of £30.00, plus no congestion charges when in London all adds to the benefits-- my local council are considering offering lower parking charges for hybrid vehicles too.
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Let's get the facts right.
Toyota's Prius warranty is 8 years / 100,000 miles on the hybrid system components e.g. inverter, electric motor, generator, and nickel metal hydride battery. Toyota documentation states the expected life of the nickel metal hydride batteries is 150,000 miles "based on laboratory bench testing".
I've considered buying one for some time but they are expensive. And I read somewhere that the government is considering the reintroduction of grants to offset some of the, new, purchase price (the old Powershift grant of up to £700 from the Energy Savings Trust was dropped after it'd run its course) so it would be silly to make a move before any decision is made.
Take a look at used Prius' and you'll see that their price holds up very well. Used prices will probably drop though when the next generation Hybrid cars arrive - they'll have improved petrol or diesel engines, and lithium ion batteries which can be topped up by plugging in to the mains overnight (even without Economy 7 electricity is cheaper than petrol?). Up to 110mpg is talked of.
The Guardian Unlimited | Special reports | The top 10 green cars link from this Site is dated November 27, 2004. For up-to-date opinions from Prius enthusiasts, American, take look at http://priuschat.com/lofiversion/index.php/. Hybrids sell much better in the States because diesels are not so popular/available there.
I think it is strange that the governments are not forcing the oil companies to release the patents that they bought off of inventors for cars that run off natural and harmless fuels.
Why is this not something that anyone seems to highlight?
We have to have a largish heavy car as we use it for towing a caravan however I refuse to go down the 4x4 road because 1, ther is no nead unless you have a huge caravan. 2, Irefuse to pay the fuel cost of these guzzalers, and 3 the tax is getting higher (as it should) also you are mor likly to kill or be killed driving one. I wish ther were more LPG cars out ther with the option of runing on DERV as well.
I would not buy a current hybrid. I regularly get 60mpg from a Skoda Fabia turbo diesel. The greatest practicable near future developments would be the availability of 100% bio diesel and the development of diesel/electic hybrids. Bio diesel has greater lubricity and greater specific energy (joules per kilogramme) than mineral diesel, as well as the much publisised zero emission over the complete production/burn cycle.
I agree with Dave Hayhurst, yes I had heard of the 3L Audi A2 and its frugal cousins from the VAG (Volkswagen Audi Group). I even tried to get my company to add it to our lease car list but alas Dave is right, the Audi Uk Co couldn't justify marketing it here due to the inherant costings loaded by our riduculous car tax over and above the high cost of production of the A2.
Still I have enjoyed the last three and half years of 64mpg motoring in the 1.4TDi A2 I currently use and yes it can be 100% biofriendly like all diesels if run on Biodiesel. Hybrids as they currently are with Petrol/Electric are not the answer and most are right to ignore them as a gimmic.
Diesel/electric is the obvious answer. Believe it or not VAG tried it in the shape of the VW Golf MkII and called it the 'Umwelt'. This car was featured on BBC's Tomorrows World way back in 1990 and was quoted at giving 105mpg!! A true 4 door saloon no gimmics and a straightforward mix of battery technology coupled to an enlarged flywheel with inbuilt generator to charge the batteries in between city driving when you switched to electric traction at up to 50mph. For the life of me I cannot understand why this never got off the ground and yes I again wanted one but was told it was not being developed for the UK market. Now the Japanese are swamping the market with Petrol Electrics that still rely on a fossil fuel for 50% of the time and considerably more technical costs than diesels powered on Biodiesel. Even at a 50% blend with dino-diesel by using biodiesel we could be reducing our CO2 footprint with considrable effect without denying everyone the chance to stay mobile. Aside from the high fuel taxes (because HMGovernment(Tory or Labour) don't want to raise income tax) the use of Biodiesel needs much greater support and encouragement rather than the tickling of duty by minimal reduction which the treasury has allowed so far.
All in all an excellent site and as a once self confessed petrolhead long converted to diesels 20 years ago I am encouraged to see many diesel users are realising the benefits. Rudolf Diesel invented this simple yet efficient engine over a 100 years ago to run on vegatable oil. The insatiable appetite of the US and Ford's Model T in the early 20th century running on cheap petrol means we have never looked back.........until now. Its time the oil giants learned to let go and then perhaps the world might be a more cleaner and perhaps a more peaceful world. We can but hope.
I drive a Honda Insight.
My last car was a Seat Arosa, and I didn't quite achieve the published combined figure of 64mpg (diesel).
The published combined figure of the Insight is 83mpg, and since I've owned the car (it was one of those Honda sold on from their own fleet), I've got an overall 85.2mpg.
There are many, many things I love about the Insight, but I won't bore you all by reciting them. I'll mention just one feature.
There's a bar chart under the speedo, that grows and shrinks to show me, in real time, how many mpg I'm getting moment by moment. This has changed my driving behaviour.
I can choose to drive like a boy racer if I want (after all, the top speed is 119), but I'll see that bar shrink away if I do. If I've left plenty of time for the journey, and I'm content to sit with the trucks in the slow lane, I can try to go for a trip record. The trip meter also shows the mpg for the journey.
So far my personal best is 105mpg door-to-door.
On a long trip, I set off hoping to do a ton. It's become gamelike in some ways: I'm not competing with other drivers, I'm competing against the petrol pump and against my own personal best for a particular trip.
Martin.
What Car recently ran some trials to determine the real-world fuel consumption of a wide selection of popular cars. Their report "Putting the 'Con' into fuel economy" makes very interesting reading and can be found here:
http://www.whatcar.com/news-special-report.aspx?NA=221542
The Toyota Prius managed 52.0mpg but was bettered by several diesels and one or two small petrol models. Best in the test was the Citroen C1 1.4HDi which returned 63.5mpg.
In reply to Mr Ian Grice.I also pull a caravan so a Prius is of no use to me,plus the fact I have 3 border collies in the back which I go to competitions with.I use a 4x4 mainly so as not to get stuck on a farmers field.The downside of this is I have to pay over the top for my road tax.The good side is I get 40+ to the gallon,I don't get bogged down with the van on the back,and a recent survey showed the safest car to be in was....wait for it, a 4x4.I am totaly against people using them for the "Shool Run",and if there was another car that could do the work of mine I would look at it. As they say horses for courses or in my case dogs and caravan it's your personal choice.
I have read the above comments (all of them) for the first time and generally I agree with peoples ideas about diesel (I run a diesel Kia carens) I would like to try lpg but cant afford the conversion cost as I.m retired I would also like to see a lot more cars fitted with 6 speed gearboxes for extra urban driving. Also as what is mentioned in the comments why is it necessary for cars to do 60mph in 7 ses and why 130 mph especially in this country. Bio diesel would be great if more garages stocked it and if the govt. paid farmers to grow the raw fuel instead of paying them for set aside land, we would be less reliant on convential fuels. but then oil giants wouldn't make £200billion +. pre tax profit ( shame!!) I also think that people who live in rural areas shouldn't be penalised by higher prices. Last week Lincolnshire 99.9p lire Birmingham 3 garages passed, or rather 2 passed!! 94.9p litre. I think this is a good site and I hope it gives the moterist a better deal.
derek Rawlinson
As with just about everything else you read on the internet, most of the comments made by the anti hybrid brigade on here are ill-informed rubbish. Of course I will defend my purchase of a Prius but in doing so I can honestly assure anyone thinking of going the hybrid way that I have a car which has more room in the back than my last car (a BMW X5), has a 0-60 acceleration of around 10 seconds, is virtually pollution free, is as quiet as a mouse, totally relaxing to drive and cheap to run. I loved my X5 but couldn't live with the consequences of running it. I love my Prius in a different way - but if it were a contest the Prius would win every time.
I drive a Volvo estate which we had converted to LPG last October. We have now saved the cost of conversion and are saving, saving & saving. Trouble is there are only two LPG filling stations in the Hebrides and they are both in Stornoway. Still with nearly a year since we bought any petrol I'd love to convert the lawn mower! LPG is a good half way house, what we need is more LPG filling stations.
I fail to see the point of the current crop of hybrid-petrol/diesel cars. They are less efficient than a conventional drivetrain. While, without a doubt, they are cleaner when running on battery, mineral fuel must be consumed to charge the batteries, whilst also propelling the vehicle along, and by way of the laws of physics, you will consume more energy in generating the electricity than you actually generate. The batteries then lose energy in the form of heat, and then the electric motors are also no so efficient. The weight of the batteries adds to the energy consumption. The batteries will eventually have to be disposed of, requiring specialist treatment.
Therefore, the current crop of hybrids are actually, long term, more harmful to the environment overall than a conventional vehicle of the same engine size/power.
Think about it. You don't get anything for nothing in this world. We haven't cracked perpetual motion, or nuclear fusion, the latter being the closest thing to clean energy we could ever hope for.
If you want to run a "green-er" car, look to the Saab Bio-ethanol/E85 burner. It is far 'greener' than any hybrid can ever be, as it actually helps reduce global CO2 levels.
Running a diesel on bio-diesel is a similar way to help global CO2 levels.
We are losing the plot, the plants are the key. They consume more CO2 than they "store", and we "extract/release" in fuels created with them, giving the planet a "NETT Reduction" in the CO2 level.
Perhaps to make the hybrids clean, they should all run on E85, Bio-ethanol, or Bio-diesel. Then they would be "clean" in my mind, but right now, a Prius is realistically dirtier than a similar engine'd Corrolla, or Avensis because you still fill it with DERV or Unleaded.
We now have a fuel that is made from WATER
and, engines can be converted quite cheaply
and switched back to ordinary fuels at will.
Now, one of these systems I WILL be interested in!!
Hybrid cars have taken too long to be available in the range of vehicles that generally appeal. Personally I think its our government just not doing nearly enough on greener options in general. I have to say that TAX on existing fuel creates a massive income from a captive audience. A bit like tobacco tax- there seems to be no real incentive for the government to have people stop smoking, similarly then with fuel tax -we keep on paying because for many there is no alternative.
It was government that cut the railways in Beeching's day and instead of investing in railways invested in roads and motorways.
Somehow I feel we have to force the government to act on fuel and alternatives. Its no good expecting hybrid cars to be made, they must be required to be made.
So how do we do that?
Okay this is all about carbon impacts right?!
Well, interstingly, the cleanest engines are CNG but they are unreliable (allegedly). If they ever took off you could feasibly fill from you home gas system (assuming you have one).
Next best is LPG and you can get it virtually anywhere now!
If you really want clean and even lower carbon you have to wait for diesel hyrbids with particualte traps (the traps make diesels less efficent so having the hybrid makes up for this loss of efficiency). Is it all making sense?!
As for Toyota hybrid - it's a good economical car from a fuel perspective but as has been said above not any more so than a diesel (so how it can be rated so low on emissions?) and at a whooping premium on list price.
I've seen professional reviews on teh Civic hybrid saying it doesn't even get to 40mpg and I won't even mention the Lexus - how a car that gets 28mpg could have a CO2 impact of less than 200g CO2 per Km is confusing to say the least.
If you get a company car, then do the maths, does the additonal cost for a hybrid make it better for your tax versus the cost of a diesel, if not for now get a diesel or an LPG car which are only about £1k more than a petrol adn should be much lower CO2 rated.
Better still, keep you old car. If it's petrol convert it for LPG use and run it til it dies, then there's no CO2 impact from making a new car (around 15 tonnes per car).
As for me, I drive a petrol auto which I am about to convert to LPG - payback on the measley miles I drive is 2 years, but as my car is pretty new I shouldn't need to replace it in the next 5 years at least, so I may yet get to go on a Cruise with less CO2 impact versus a long haul flight and therefore less carbon tax to pay - that is when we start to pay for our carbon impacts!
Like someone has said these cars cost a package and not everyone can afford them, this is my point you make cars to help the environment they should be the cheapest cars to buy and affordable to everyone, but no soon they will be coming with the extras, leather, air con, etc, so whats the point, my car cost £5000 four years ago and is a good runner, I can not afford £17,000 to buy a Prius, so who are these car manufacturers helping the environment or there pockets.
I would not buy a hybrid car at this moment in time because the purchase prices are way too high. Also -look to the future, Formula 1 engine manufacturers are going to be encouraged to adopt and develop this sort of technology. We have seen how fast they respond to new rules and regs. So how long before ideas and developments get passed on ? Engine manufacturers and their development teams know this is coming, so their people are probably already burning midnight oil to be one step ahead of the competition.
I think that there is one VERY IMPORTANT thing everyone is overlooking, and it is this, that even if everyone could afford to buy a new dual fuel car, or run their car on LPG or SUN FLOWER OIL or WHATEVER !!! then the Government would simply hike the prices up to those that we are currnetly paying and we would always be ripped off no matter how we try to go green, or try to fulfill our duty in helping the environment. In other words unless we can clear the smoke screen of the envronment being the sole cause of us all being ripped off we are on a hiding to NOTHING !!!!!!!!!!
Not a cat in hell's chance of buying a hybrid. I'm a driving instructor using a Clio 1.5 dCi (80bhp). It has an emissions rating of 117 gms/(whatever......I've forgotten) and is returning 54 mpg on lessons. I recently drove from Doncaster to Skipton and return and got 71 mpg. I have had over 80 mpg from Donny to Whitby, and both journeys were as quick as possible (and that doesn't necessarily mean legally). Why would I need something like a Prius? My 0-60 time is way above average for it's class and it doesn't compromise economy.
If, in my humble opinion, I think a hybrid car will cost-effectively meet my transportation needs than I will most certainly by one. But if the government, environmentalists, et al. think they can bully me into a different decision, then shame on them. The best thing the government can do is minimise taxes and maximise information availability so I can do the right thing. Never tell people how to do things. Tell them the truth, the whole truth, and they will surprise you with their ingenuity.
I'm a self-employed high mileage driver and was running a Volvo 940 Estate as I needed the rear loadspace for work. Two years ago, and with 175,000 miles on the clock and with petrol (then) around 60p a litre, I looked at the new cars available and the fuel alternatives - diesel or LPG. I plumped for a ex-demo Bi-Fuel V70 estate via my local dealer and was immediately "saving" 50% of my fuel costs. (Of course they are company costs, but I still have to fork out for it to start with, before claiming it back as business expenses). Since then LPG has slowly crept up, but it's still half the price of petrol or diesel. And considering the fuel costs only, I save around 10p for EVERY mile I travel (compared to petrol). So, over the 60,000 miles I've done in 2 years, I've saved around.....£6,000 on fuel costs. I also save on Road Fund Tax (ok, only a few quid, but LPG does produce less CO2) and I don't pay the London Congestion Charge. Servicing my car is also cheaper, as the engine oil stays cleaner as it doesn't have the impurities that petrol has - even after 12,000, the engine oil is still golden...!
I'm cover the Home Counties region and the only issue is the lack of filling stations - there's only a few Sainsburys, Morrisons and Shell stations. I avoid the BP one's as they usually charge upto 10p a litre more than the rest. But now I know where they are , it's easy to plan ones journey to go in their direction, when I need a top-up. Can't remember the last time I bought petrol...!
Still a lot of confusion around hybrids on here despite some peoples best attempts being made to straighten out the facts. I have the best of both worlds a Prius that runs on LPG, I average 90+ MPG all the time (in terms of cost) which no diesel can get anywhere near.
Comparing what you can get from a normal car on a run will not give you a fair comparison to a Prius, the worst MPG I have ever achieved was 48 MPG during an absolutely insane speed limit busting run to the airport. My previous car (Passat 1.9 TD) would have got about 25 MPG on the same run so perhaps it is best to compare a normal cars WORST MPG with that of a Prius because it is only when it is stuck in stationary or slow moving traffic that the Prius excels. Every time I'm stuck in traffic (and that's quite often) I'm not using a drop of fuel whereas everyone around me is quietly having their average MPG destroyed.
If you do lots of miles on the motorway then yes buy a modern common rail diesel engined car, it will beat the Prius easily (except my LPG one of course) on MPG. However if you spend more than say 30% of your time in traffic or around town then the Prius wins.
I too am waiting for a diesel hybrid but there are a lot of techical problems to be overcome first, the main one is the huge amount of energy needed to start a diesel engine makes it all a waste of time. The Prius on the other hand has a special low compression petrol engine that is very easy to start.
In response to John Edmondsonse, Acording to Ncap and ROSPA you are more likly to kill a pedestrian or another road user if you drive a 4x4 and also to roll it if you have to swerv. And lets not talk about the breaking distance. Yes ther is an advantage of not getting stuck in the mud, but to be honest in all my years of caravaning I can count the number of times I have gotten stuck on 2 fingers, and I caravan winter and summer. As for fitting the dogs in mosr estate cars have biger boots than the avrage 4x4. Also the emisions are at least 2 classes below most 4x4.
Just read a feature in yesterdays Guardian about the new lithium pwered car sports car that can outstrip a Ferarri 0-60 + cost 1p a mile to run. Made on a Lotus chassis etc made in America costs around $1000000 they have a waiting list for the 100 they can make. People have even sent the price just to be added to the list....A must read Guardian G2 Tues 22nd Aug. Plus a look at the competition.
Last week I got 62 mpg out of a new Mitsubishi Colt diesel automatic (<1000 miles on the clock). I tried a Prius but could not get more than 55 mpg if motorway driving (at 70mph max) was included. The Colt cost under £11,000, the Prius not far from twice that amount. Financially it was no contest (though the Prius was a "bigger car experience" - but not much bigger). Marry a diesel to a hybrid and I will be interested - but only at sensible prices.
We''ll know that Gordon Brown is really concerned about global warming when he starts to subsidise hybrids - by reducing the VAT or Car Tax on them.
I also have what another blogger called a "gas guzzler". This is a Volvo XC90 - it averages 35 mpg (at up to 75 mph on m'ways), and produces no more CO2 than a Vauxhall or Volkswagen two litre petrol. Politicians are going after 4x4s because they are easily recognisable targets: actually these politicians would like to have a go at all cars - but they know there are no votes in being that honest with voters.
When I see Prescott forsake his Jags (more polluting than the Volvo), and Blair forsake his air miles I will know they are really serious about global warming. Then someone will have to tell the Chinese and the Indians that they had better forget about two cars in the drive.
Lot of misinformation about hybrids here. The Prius battery is guaranteed for 8 years in the UK, 10 in parts of the USA. Virtually none have needed replacing. Performance on the open road is fine, better than I expected and it will beat most cars from the lights, thanks to its electric booster rocket.
Nor is it expensive. The top of the range model, the T-Spirit is currently quoted at £18607 by drivethedeal which I think compares favourably with equivalent cars such as an Avensis or a Passat diesel (my last car). NO diesel is cleaner than a Prius, which (for instance) has zero NOx and zero particulate emissions.
I have had a Prius for 2 1/2 years now and have a lifetime average of 58mpg, better than a Smart car. I will never again buy a car so stupid it doesn't even know when to turn its engine off.
Personally, I am not a great fan of the current selection of hybrid vehicles for a host of reasons however I am extremely concerned over the emmissions produced by my small fleet of cars (3). I understood from an article on bio-diesels that the VW/Audi group of cars permitted the use of bio-diesels in their engines without detriment to the warranty. This appears not to be the case when you talk to the service departments at the dealer premises. I also tried BMW technical support who were quite insistent that no bio-diesels were to be used in their engines and indeed, having since purchased a BMW, it clearly says in side the petrol filler flap that no such fuel should be put in the tank. Had the Audi dealer confirmed that I could use these alternative fuel types I would have purchased the Audi and not the BMW. BMW just kept re-iterating that they were developing the Hydrogen engine for relaase at some point in the future.
Surely if bio-diesels have low or zero emmissions then this is where the government support should be focused. Environmentally friendly, no need to drive small often less aesthetically pleasing vehicles, cheap and given the ability to also use old cooking oil, a good source for recycling of waste too.
If diesel engines can technically run on this fuel type, as per the page on this site regarding the subject, why will the Government not "encourage" manufacturers to support the use of this fuel type. It seems to me that businesses and individuals are prepared to make the change but the car manufacturers cannot be bothered so need to be pressured into making available what I am told is a very minor engine modifications where necessary.
If BMW are listening, I am happy to test a scheme and I know my local dealer is interested too.
Many years ago I converted my school carts to run on LPG--in fact,not strictly true as I ran them on methane derived from pedigree pig poo! At the time I was amazed how smoothly they ran and how environmentally friendly they were in a confined space. Since then I have often considered converting my cars to LPG but in the early days there were many dodgy deals inback street garages and,unless you did high mileagesit was not cost effective.There was also the problem of wher the tank would go--give up your spare wheel and put a doughnut tank in the boot--I don't think so.
However,what does intrigue me is why very few car manufacturers have grasped the opportunity to get on board and build tank spaces into their body pressings--do they know something we don't? Is our greedy Chancellor likely to double the tax on LPG overnight? I'm sure if a car producer built LPG into their designs and came up with a sensible price many would jump at it.I also believe that you can legally use domestic gas from those big white tanks which is considerably cheaper than autogas.
This is a hybrid car worth owning!
Exige 265E - fastest Exige bio-ethanol power
It looks like a slightly more colourful Exige - what's the story?
This is the Exige 265E - the fastest ever Exige and the first bio-ethanol Lotus. The digits 265 denote the 265PS power output, or 261bhp in old money – up 46bhp over the standard car. The 'E' informs people that this car runs on ethanol, alcohol made from the fermentation of crops, mixed with petrol. Using this greener fuel results in a claimed 70 percent reduction in carbon dioxide emissions........Read more.......
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/first_drive.php?sid=105&page=1
Are the Lithium batteries in the next generation hybrids going to catch fire like the Sony Lithium batteries in Dell computers?
I'd love to buy a hybrid car and save a bit on my fuel costs - they sound like good engineering technology.
Unfortunately, until they get to the 10-year-old sub-£1000 level, there's no way I could afford to!
I recently had this mailed to me about an alledged question to the motor industry by Bill Gates ref the rate of improvement in cars.
Comical reading or true?
If Microsoft Made Cars
At COMDEX recently, Bill Gates reportedly compared the computer industry with the auto industry and stated , "If GM had kept up with the technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving $25.00 cars that got 1,000 miles to the "gallon".
In response to Bill's comments, General Motors issued a press release stating if GM had developed technology like Microsoft, we would all be driving cars with the following characteristics.
1. For no reason whatsoever your car would crash twice a day.
2. Every time they repaired the lines in the road, you would have to buy a new car.
3. Occasionally your car would die on the freeway for no reason. You would have to pull over to the side of the road, close all of the windows, shut off the car, restart it and reopen the windows before you could continue. For some reason you would simply accept this.
4. Occasionally, executing a manoeuvre such as a left turn would cause your car to shut down and refuse to start, in which case you would have to reinstall the engine.
5. Macintosh would make a car that was powered by the sun, was reliable, five times as fast and twice as easy to drive, but would run only on five per cent of the roads.
6. The oil, water temperature and alternator warning lights would all be replaced by a single "This Car Has Performed An Illegal Operation" warning light.
7. The airbag system would ask "Are You Sure" before deploying.
8. Occasionally, for no reason whatsoever, your car would lock you out and refuse to let you in until you simultaneously lifted the door handle, turned the key and grabbed hold of the radio aerial.
9. Every time a new car was introduced, car buyers would to learn how to drive all over again, because none of the controls would operate in the same manner as the old car.
10. Oh yeah, and last but not least.... You'd have to press the "Start" button to turn the engine off.
I would consider swapping in my 4x4 for a Hybrid if the government helped with this, now at the moment they want more Hybrids bought in the UK and they want cars like what I own off the road, but what they don’t understand is why we buy these cars.
Its simple a lot of 4x4 you see on the road are now imports if you see a Mitsubishi 9 out of 10 times its now imported and you see them cos they are cheap you can get 1 for about £500 and its Diesel it will have about 12000 kilometers which will work out about 80000 miles bout’s, now you cant get a petrol car for that with that low mileage. And as we all know a Diesel engine will go easy over 200,000 miles if looked after so it’s a bargain really, so many people have bought these cars for that reason.
If the government wants people out of these cars then they need to offer an incentive and if they won’t us to buy Hybrids they need to offer it there but they don’t.
They expect for them to tell us what’s what and we say how high and jump.
As I said if they won’t me out of my 4x4 and into a Hybrid then offer me a huge discount for doing that don’t increase fuel cost I still have to get from A to B and also need to do other things and all increasing fuel does is increase a families out goings nothing more.
I think the other reason Hybrids don’t shift is simple we don’t trust the government and we know that when we start using these cars they will just TAX the back end out of us there. So what is the point we won’t get any financial benefit from using them and they are a huge out lay. When governments stop being so greedy and attacking the motorist with all there TAX then maybe things will change, but I don’t ever see that happening.
I think it is strange that the governments are not forcing the oil companies to release the patents that they bought off of inventors for cars that run off natural and harmless fuels.
Why is this not something that anyone seems to highlight?
Posted by Dave Russell, 23rd August 2006 6:19pm<------ I also want to to know why?. This is were are reliance would end with the oil companys and opps we would not pay half as much tax or is that it, no oil needed half as much tax recived theirs your answer.
The current focus on carbon emissions has biassed the taxation system in favour of diesels. If we were to look at the other damaging effects of exhaust emissions, including oxides of nitrogen and benzopyrenes, we would see that diesel fuel is extremely harful both to air quality and to human health. A colleague of a friend of mine uses a substance identical to diesel fuel in a medical research project; COSHH regulations mean she has to werar protective clothing and only open the container in a fume cupboard.
If you look at the European Directives that define the tests for exhaust emisions you'll find there are different tests for petrol and diesel. I was told by an engineer who works for a company making catalysts/partiulate filters for diesels that the European tests do not get the filter hot enough to burn off the trapped carbon therefore much of the carbon produced is trapped in the filter unter the car is driven fast (above 50mph) for 20 minutes, when the trapped carbon, that has not been measured in the test, is burned off. I guess that when the majority of cars on the road are diesel engined, the manufacturers will "discover" the real pollution caused by diesel and promote something else as the "clean" technology.
I'm not convinced by hybrids either. It sounds a great idea to store the energy normally wasted in braking, and use it for subsequent acceleration, but how much energy is used, and pollution caused, to make (and eventually dispose of) the batteries and electric motors?
As for hydrogen, there are many problems to be overcome, including the dannger aspect of the high storage pressures. The most important though is how the hydrogen will be produced. Most likely seems to be electrolysis of water into oxygen and hydrogen. This consumes huge amounts of electricity, which is already in short supply, so if we switch to hydrogen-powered transport will we need a chain of nuclear power stations.
My final point is that the givernment seem to have lost interest in green transport, with the closure of Powershift and cessation of grants for efficient vehicles.
I have a 3 year old Citroen C3 1.4 HDi, bought for £5000. I commute on A-roads, about 70 miles a day, usually at around 50mph. Using the "tank brimming" technique already mentioned I calculate my average fuel consumption at 78.4mpg.
Town driving (in the centre of York) reduces my average to the mid to high 60s. Still about 10mpg better than any hybrid.
They are an expensive gimmick.
I was looking into getting my car converted to LPG - there are petrol stations supplying it close to both home and work - but then I found out the cost, and the amount of time it would take to recoup that cost. I might still consider it if and when I can afford to replace my now fairly clapped out car. I do fairly high mileage, and any saving helps. My questions would be - why did they withdraw the grant that used to be available to get your car converted to LPG? Surely the cost to reduce UK motoring's "carbon footprint" can't be that high? And why can't I find any manufacturer who sells LPG cars from new, rather than needing to pay for conversion and losing your spare tyre?
Unfortunately half the reason I own a car is for the thrill of driving and as such performance and style means a lot to me. The current hybrid cars have (in general) quite poor performance and supremely bad styling. There are fast saloon hybrid cars emerging such as the GS450h from Lexus but these cars don't offer anywhere near large enough reductions in fuel consumption to warrent the extra purchasing and maintainance costs.
When low maintainance, high performance hybrid cars start to emerge then I shall consider buying one, but until then I shall be stuck with my 22mpg.
This whole discussion about hybrid cars seems to me to be quite facile given that the whole CO2 argument is a load of tosh!
The build-up of CO2 in the atmosphere does not cause global warming, quite the converse, it is caused by global warming. This means that the current build-up is caused by warming which has already happened. We are, in fact, now entering a period of global cooling which started in 1998!!
Don't take my word for it, see the evidence based science, not the emotional eco c**p that we are fed by the greens and the government (as it brings in more tax revenue). You can find it at http://www.abd.org.uk/ then click on "Environment".
Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating that we squander our fossil fuels, as we need them to make our plastics etc. we should instead be concentrating or efforts on Hydrogen power and in the interim, bio fuels or any of the technologies that were bought up by the oil giants and killed off to protect their obscene profits.
Hybrid cars are the oil companies way of prolonging their gravy train. Bring on Hydrogen power!
The cost of a green car is more exspensive to buy and is not virable to have.
In the 50/60 most cars were max 1000cc and only the exspensive cars were higher. I grew up in London in the fifties and there was only two cars in the street I lived. I moved from the street 8 years ago because of the parking problems after over 40 years. I would buy an hybred if the price was around £10.000 or less. the prices of hybreds are kept high due to the fact that the car companies want to make a profit. All private cars should not be higher than 2000cc in size and every car should have a speed control built in so we can't speed me included.
I just don't buy into all the enviromental propoganda that is forced down our throats.Hybrid cars are not going to make any significant impact while america and china continue to flout global agreements regarding greenhouse gases and they're not likely to change their ways in the near future.They are,however,a wonderful marketing opportunity for car manufacturers and pushing their use is a guaranteed vote winner for politicians.I'm sick of being branded an enviromental terrorist just because I drive a supercharged Jaguar.I'm not a criminal I just love driving a fantastic automobile and I pay for the privilege every time I fill up.Anyway the Prius is rubbish.CLARKSON FOR PRESIDENT !!!
having read your comments , why the likes of all the motor company's have spent millions pounds on investing in the hybrid car,eco friendly . when we all ready have one thats been around for a 100yrs is beyond me , when the diesel engine was first built it was desighed to run on peanut oil, you can not get anymore green than the , poor mr diesel died before he could get is engine patend, in step the oil people ,£££££££££. please go and google it theres plenty out about it , i do know some who's been running is diesel on 60/40 mix of diesel for about 4yrs with out any problems , the technolgy always been there , its wether the car manufactuers , and the goverment can make more money out of you . buy bringing out some thing new , all about .££££££££$$$$$$$$$$$$ thats all..
Hi, I own a Land Rover discovery 2.5TDi, 1992.
And I think I'm doing my bit for the 'hybrid society', as I run mine on 20% Diesel and 80% PURE VEGTABLE OIL, cheapest you can get from supermarkets or other suppliers. 3ltr bottle approx £1.60, Diesel 3ltrs approx £3.00!!!
It just goes straight from the bottle into the tank, no mods or additives etc, just straight in.
I stand to be corrected, and know doubt I will be, but I believe when the diesel was invented, around the end of 1st world war, or between the 2 wars, they were designed to run on the likes of VEG OIL, because it was easier to get, and more plentiful, than Diesel.
Now, before using VEG OIL I was getting around 25mpg and now I average approx 32/33mpg, ok its not alot more, but think how much I'm saving in good old money!!!!
I use my car everyday for work, approx 20miles round trip, weekends if not playing around off-road, I'm up and down the country to Land Rover shows etc.
When I first added the VEG OIL I was a bit hesitant about it, but it ran smoother and alot quieter than ever.
I do know people who run their Landy's on PURE VEG OIL, but I'v opted to mix them. Its doing no harm what so ever.
Its CHEAPER, GREENER and sligtly more ECONOMICAL.
One point is that, to do it legally you MUST/SHOULD pay the tax on it, which still only brings it to around 75(ish)p per litre!!
I am awaiting delivery of my new Honda Civic Hybrid (promised early November, ordered back in April).
Managed to negotiate down to £16,200 on the road for leather trim with no trade-in incl 3yrs service, 3yr AA.
Attracted by Honda reputation for reliability (includes 10 year warranty on battery and electric power unit) , looking forward to town driving economy and £30 road tax. Insurance quotes no worse than other cars.
Whilst I know diesel offers best economy I wanted an automatic and a bit of luxury with lower running costs.
One press critiscism is that this model is only offered as a saloon, but the boot is very big with low loading lip, leg room back and front excellent, very quiet and comfortable - I was impressed with my half day test drive back in April
Time will tell, when it eventually arrives
I have been looking at the Hybrids recently but not impressed by either the look of the Toyota or the Honda, both are too big and ugly also heavy looking and have the batteries in a spot which stops you from folding down the back seats, if you need to at any time. I have a Honda Civic at the present time and if I were to buy a hybrid I would need it to feel different to driving the Honda, but it doesnt feel a lot different. Being a lady driver I would need to wait until a smaller hybrid car comes available with batteries that are not so big and heavy. I also think they are too expensive at the present time for someone of my age group,( 60's) hurry up and bring out something that pensioners can afford, after all most of us are on the breadline.
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A Hybrid van would be good but I am Self Employed in Leeds supplying a Handyman Service and have no other way but to use a diesel Van and I am appalled at the spiralling cost of diesel over the past year -- traditionally diesel used to be cheaper than petrol and no comments have been made in the press about this rise I E diesel is now higher than petrol - the press only seem to comment on petrol going up again but in my eyes seem to ignore diesel .
WHAT most people seem to forget if diesel increases then living costs increase, because how do we receive most of our goods -- food etc and services - by vans and most vans / lorries etc rely on diesel to run, until we find a cost effective Hybrid Van to supply this service we are stuck and need to move in a separate way to solving our probs I E diesel vans at the moment is our only way to serve people so we need to look at this first.
So think on this for a bit what happens ??? to costs of goods etc they rise because diesel transport costs rise !!! NO EXTRA PROFIT to the supplier I must add just brake even on service supplied.
I understand that there are variations in price due to oil but it could send a small business under if the cost rises to high and the net result is job loss, as a member of the F S B - Federation of Small Business ( Please Note Iam NOT SPEAKING ON THERE BEHALF IN ANY WAY ONLY AS MYSELF) our organisation is aware of this and campaigns on this issue.
BUT Until the general public are aware of the major impact this price hike REALLY HAS, the attitude of OH OK !! petrol has ONLY gone up by x pence a ltr --- 4.5 ltr to the gallon so WHAT !! will not change -- I must point out until this attitude changes and it MUST change and change soon we need to keep a campaign going.
I as a small business over this past year have had to mostly swallow this hike and keep my service price reasonable but this is now a MAJOR JOKE.
A major campaign like this blogg and hounding the press & Gov with new worthy points ALL THE TIME is another way to WAKE THE U K PUBLIC UP !!! - as brits the stiff upper lip is starting to tremble a bit now and as we have seen in supermarket price rises, they (THE GENERAL PUBLIC THAT IS) are only just beginning to realise the impact of fuel cost now !!!
Anyone out there that feels the same as me needs to band together or use all the contacts we have, and ask the Gov to reach a reasonable compromise, I E DUTY & TAX ON FUEL What's that all about ???
Why not One Flat Rate ?? which is easier to vary if things get bad , as if the price rises at the pump the Tax & Duty go up, past the projections made by the Gov ---- so more profits to the Gov over and above the projections made --- if the public ignore this -- we the U K will pull ourselves under with the apathy we have at this moment, INSTEAD of moving forward as we have been and improving our quality of life in the U K we need to ALL work together --- find an effective low cost hybrid Van and in the mean time sort out diesel costs to survive as a nation & not pull in separate directions (Gov & Public ) as we are at the moment.
Lot of posts here since my original one and like some others said there is a lot of mis-information about the Prius. I do find it amazing that those who 'knock' the hybrid are prepared to go to print with incorrect information as if they are facts.
In case as one writer wrote "I am always supsicious of who is writing them because I prefer to believe the professiosal writers who in the main are all against them" I can assure you that I for one am not connected in any way to Toyota, working for a commercial subsidiary of a University I am involved with Safety Assessments and have a lot of experience with vehicles. Also if all the proffesional writers were against hybrids, they must have had a brainstorm when a significant majority awarded the Prius "Car of the Year" in 2005. Even the few who didn't vote for it gave it very high marks overall.
Environmentally the car does cost more in pollution initially in production, but Toyota have demonstrated that the savings in emissions quickly cancel that out and over the life of the Prius significant savings are made.
"Someone" commented that the car is ugly! Well beauty is in the eye of the beholder and in true Spike Milligan style I could suggest Optrex!
Finally for me, well there are way too many questions, on the subject of diesel - yuk all those particulates etc. Just stand next to a diesel in a city traffic jam. The Prius not only is cleaner, but switches the Combustion Engine off in a queue.
Sure if you want a little tiny car - my wife drives a Yaris, you'll get similar figures - sometimes better, sometime worse. But the point for me is that the Prius is big. You have to compare like with like.
Hopefully more variations on the hybrid will materialise to give more choice.
Phil
Many people here have expressed the view that the gov should be providing more incentives to use cleaner cars. I for one think that they already are (I think they could do more) I have just ordered my next company car, it will be a Toyota Prius, it will be the most expensive car I have ever had but it will cost me less than any car I have had before.
Cars with CO2 below 120g/Km are taxed much less, the Prius is taxed at 12% of it's P11D value. My current car (Vaux zafira 2L D) is taxed at 25% of it's P11D value.
If you buy one yourself the VED (road tax) is £30 and remember less fuel means less tax.
A different post for a different theme.
Many posters have pointed out (quite rightly) that diesels do better mpg than petrol hybrids. OK they do but how many petrol cars can match the Prius and it's counterparts, Lets compare like with like.
Not many boasts about mileage from LPG. LPG is a clean fuel and would be burnt off as a wast product if not used on the road so it is very good in that respect but it will not give the mileage of Petrol or Diesel.
These cars all do less than 120g CO2 / Km
http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/information/how-to-use-the-data-tables.asp#petrol
Good sized 4/5 door family cars that are cleaner and give better than mpg than a Smart car are at the top of the list. Guess what , they are hybrids.
I would like to be able to afford a hybrid car .If I could I would buy one ,they are a very good idea . Perhaps they will come down in price. But the government needs to offer incentives to the public
I have had my Prius for two years it has been an excellent car and without any problems. The car is ahead of the rest with fly by wire technology and a host of innovative developments. The design is being followed by other major manufacturers and the car is a huge success in the US.
The low noise, low emission, exceptional town driving versatility, coupled with a superb level of comfort and ride, make it just so easy to drive and one of the best vehicles to own on our overcrowded roads. Who wants a gas guzzling 'chelsea tractor' with the finesse of a bouncing brick or a noisy rumbling roadster when you can have the benefits of a Toyota Prius?
I have read with interest the above comments and am amazed at the acceptance of this governments thirst for our money, the iniquitous tax on fuels should become a major influence on electoral ambitions, then we may see our food and cost of living spiral reduced.
I regard the Toyota Prius and its ilk as a stopgap until vehicles powered by hydrogen fuel cells become readily available. Even though i am an avowed "Petrolhead", it's becoming increasingly clear that our ecosystem is suffering due to our reliance on fossil fuels. Unfortunately, hybrid vehicles don't really help as much as some would have us believe. The motor manufacturers push hybrid technology because it allows them to use existing production facilities to manufacture the vehicles. It's time for one of the major manufacturers to take a leap of faith and develop a site solely geared to the production of fuel cell power plants and vehicles. We, the consumers, can play a powerful part in that decision, for it is up to us to tell the government and car industry that we want and need to speed up development and construction of the infrastructure, to give this exciting new technology a chance to thrive.