Would you buy a hybrid car?

Steve L

sadly your deisel links don't seem to work

The South African Lung Cancer / Diesel article is somewhat flawed in that it relates to a relatively high altitude situation (The city is 6000 feet above sea level) and is talking about vehicles using 1950s Mineral Diesel technology at best - so overly rich combustion leading to excessive smoke and henece particlulates. Before 1930 diesels ran on vegitable oil and were actually cleaner than post 1930!

Petrol engines produce particulates (albeit invisible to human eye) and the fumes are carcenogenic. Also Petrol engines are far less thermally efficient and wear more quickly than diesels leading to greater emmissions after just 50,000 miles whereas the diesel reamins constant into 200,000 miles. Petrols emit much more CO2 than diesels.

Modern Diesels are now produced with amazingly efficient high pressure injectors (VW PD) or Common Rail systems, Particuilate filters and soon Urea NOx catalysts that all but remove the quoted pollution problems. Also running on Bio Diesel (waste oil or Elephant grass - latter can be grown in Africa and is non invasive and allows second crop of maise/Sorgum for food production) makes the Diesel engine a viable solution for at least the next 50 years until Hydrogen can be produced cheaply without burning fossil fuels and the infrastructure for H2 and electric vehcles is in place.

LPG is loosing favour with UK Govt because it is less efficient than petrol and offers just 8% reduction in CO2 emissions overall. Also LPG cars emit more CO2 than Diesels.

Diesel Electrics may be a good option - see PSA C4 that offers 80mpg. But Electic motors and batterys are very expensive.

CNG is natural gas - low emissions but still a NON renewable fuel.

quote message 33
We now have a fuel that is made from WATER
and, engines can be converted quite cheaply
and switched back to ordinary fuels at will.

Now, one of these systems I WILL be interested in!!

yes, and you are not alone, the problem is (as i understand it) the hydrogen system i suspect you are referring to is currently unviable because of the financial cost but more importantly the fact that it is currently more damaging to the environment to extract the hydrogen than it is to run an equivelent vehicle on petrol

good news though
there is a research facility (maybe more that im not aware of) that is working on bringin both the environmental and financial cost to a minimum
and just as importantly
performance from the test vehicles is almost as good as the petrol equivelent

Someone on one of the previous comments posted that you cant do anything LPG wise with a diesel, this is not the case. You can install a LPG kit to a diesel, where it uses a 70% diesel and 30% LPG mixture. Obviously the savings arent as good as converting a petrol car.

Well my main comments are based around the difference in LPG prices between the mainland and NI. There seems to be an additional premium added onto insurance and LPG in my case. Average prices seem to be around 39.9 - 42.9 at the most but yet we are paying 47p a litre.

The government are always looking for people to move towards greener forms of transport but yet there are no real incentives. I converted a guzzling 406 to LPG in NI whereas if I had it done on the mainland, I would have got nearly 40-50% refunded back as there was a government run scheme. Same goes for the price of LPG, it should be a standard price all over. I cant see how they can hike the prices up but yet when costs down the line (production/drilling stage) drop, prices do not drop by the same amount.

Personally speaking, I think the hybrid cars are a good idea but the manufactures along with the governments should be offering good incentives for people to move to these vehicles but yet again, like everything else, tax them to the hilt when they do move.

Just for the sake of envoirnment and if i can afford to buy one.

I have an only LPG car, Kia Carens year 2000. I have a lot of consume on this. I need to know how many Km per Lt is a normal consume. It has an 1800 CC. motor.
Thank You

Hi Geoff,

First, is it necessary to make a personal insult out of my name? I get that from my pre-teen students, and don't expect it from adults.

Anyway, like I said earlier, I'm up for a challenge. Let's put the Prius and any other hybrids on the road, with sealed tanks, against a selection of diesels. Load them up as much as you want and drive a long distance through a variety of road types.

Then we'll see if they really are worth twice the price.

Making a similar calculation to yours using the C3's computer, I get about 68mpg too - for the urban cycle alone. At a constant 50mph, the computer says I am getting 90-100 mpg. My "actual" mpg (combining my commutes with the rare occasions I use the car in town) is still over 70mpg. I once drove the car as hard as legally possible through a city, at high speed along a motorway, and then over the North Yorks Moors, and still returned an average for the journey at 65 mpg.

And there is no profit in "infinite" mpg when a Prius is running on the batteries: those batteries need to be charged and the Prius is going to emit fumes when doing so. A Prius does not eliminate fumes - it just moves them somewhere else. My neighbour's Prius emits fumes across my back garden when no-one is in the car.

To Richard W,
I didn't know about the capital allowance. That incentive obviously tips the balance.

To Gareth 'behaving like a spoilt' Child,

we prius owners were promised an average of 65 mpg, I am consistently getting an average of 61 - 63 mpg on a variety of roads.

This figure is calculated by the on board computer using a maximum figure of 99.9, therefore it is mathematically lower than the actual consumption (when the car is running without the petrol engine on, it is effectively doing an infinite mpg)

Having calculated mileage to petrol used in the 3 months I've had this car, the 'actual' mpg is 68.7

I am quite confident that if you made a similar calculation on your C3, including your daily commute and family trip (with fully loaded car) you won't compete.

and don't get me started on emissions!

To Gareth

It's only a car, not life and death!

One other huge benefit for me (and presumably other self employed types) is the 100% capital allowance for business use. I can effectively write off a significant proportion of the £20,000 initial cost against my tax bill.

To Richard W

You've obviously not tried a C3, have you?

My C3 can carry myself, my wife and three kids, one with a wheelchair, and our luggage. And, incidentally, the wheelchair wouldn't fit in the Prius' technically "larger" boot.

And if the extra 100 litres of boot space is so important, why not get a VW Polo SDi Estate or a Skoda Fabia Estate? Not as economical as a C3, but still much better than a Prius and you can fit a fridge in the boot if you wanted to.

Choosing a Prius for economy and ecology is only possible if you rule out the better cars for different reasons - basically, moving the goalposts.

That is the major problem with a significant number of comments in this discussion: they are praising one side of the debate on the basis of incorrect assumptions about the other.

And as for Toyota's promises of 110mpg for the next-gen Prius: they promised an average of 67mpg for the current one. None of the Prius owners I know even get that.

I drive in excess of 25,000 miles p.a. & have been driving diesels for the past 5 years with extreme satisfaction on the economy, however I wanted to be a bit more environmentally friendly. Therefore I now run a car that I had converted to LPG, I get just as good economy figures, (£ for £), on a lomg run as my previous diesels & only slightly less around town. I am concerned that the cost of the LPG seems to be rising, (although not in line with petrol & Diesel), however when a price war hits, the LPG seems to be unaffected therefore reducing its attractiveness on the cost front as it maintains its price levels.

To Gareth Childs - I have no problem with someone's opinion of a car. You do not like the prius and that's fine. I personally woudn't be seen dead in a boy racer Evo 6. However you are not comparing apples with apples. The Prius is defined as a 'family' sized car whilst a Citroen C3 is a 'supermini'. Totally different animals. For example there is no way that we could happily travelled to Cornwall on holiday in a Citroen C3 with two children in the rear and all of our walking/beach gear in the boot. The space in the front may be comparable between the 2 cars but it is ridiculous to state that there is 'not much in it' in the rear and the boot. The Prius is much larger.

It may not win on a mpg challenge but that it not the whole reason to buy one. There are many other positives.

The next generation prius planned for 2008 is intended to achieve in excess of 110mpg. I cannot see any diesel car challenging that statistic if they can achieve it (and I wouldn't bet against the Toyota scientific boffins). The price will drop as more are sold and lots of other manufacturers will be buying into the hybrid technology

The Congestion Charge in london is £8 a day. Hybrids don't pay (for a £10 annual registration.)

Buy a hybrid rather than a cheap, economical supermini, and it will pay for itself in 1,000 working days. That's more than three years.

If you are looking at a diesel supermini, that's three years of superior fuel consumption you are rejecting in order to save £10 a day. My own commute (70 miles a day) saves me £5 a day over the cost of running a hybrid.

So if I had to pay the Congestion Charge, it would take more than six years to pay for itself. And it would only pay for itself because of the CC discount.

On a level playing field, hybrids just cannot compete.

One thing I have not seen mentioned is the saving on the congestion charge. 'I dont live in London' I hear you say, but after the success in London of the Congestion charge, do any of us doubt that in 10 years time every major city center will have a CC?

As I already said, my 53 plate Citroen C3 HDi gets 78.4mpg on my 70-mile-a-day commute. Even when driving around towns and on motorways at the legal limit, a Prius can't match the fuel economy of a small, modern diesel supermini.

And criticising a modern diesel for its noise, smell and emissions is no different to "knocking" a hybrid on the back of incorrect information.

A 53 plate Prius will cost (according to the Toyota UK website) between £13,000 and £15,000. My 53 plate C3 cost me £5000 from a Citroen main dealer last November.

The Prius has a boot capacity of 408 litres; the C3 has 305 litres. As for the rest of the interior space, there isn't much in it. (I am 6'5" and am just as comfortable in my C3 as I was when test driving the Prius.)

Are the advantages of slightly bigger seats and an extra 103 litres of boot capacity really worth the price difference of more than £8,000? Not when it comes to my money, it isn't.

I'm up for a road test to settle this. Let's all brim our cars' fuel tanks and seal them and let's drive any route, a minimum of 700 miles, covering all types of road. I'm willing to bet my shirt that the Prius' fuel economy would be stuffed by more than one model of small car.

And because the Prius is a one trick pony that can't beat the competition for fuel consumption, it is pointless.

They are an overpriced, overengineered gimmick - and a triumph of marketing spin.

@86 "Ray Jones" said "The 65.7 mpg figure claimed in the brochure and in the Guardian review is simply rubbish".

Have you looked at how the official MPG is derived? The "urban" part of the test has a series of accelerate-brake-stop-wait cycles. This is exactly what the Prius is best at: unlike every other car, it won't be using *any fuel at all* during the "idling" parts of the test. The "extra-urban" part also involves several acceleration stages with some deceleration and cruising between; the hybrid system can even that out somewhat, so that the engine is always running near maximum efficiency.

http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/information/fuel-consumption-testing-scheme.asp

So I don't think the figures are "rubbish", although they may not be representative of the average driver's experience. In my Prius, I've found that economy on the motorway is only ~45mpg, which is no better than my girlfriend gets in her BMW530d! But across London, the Beemer is down in the twenties, while the Prius can score better than 75mpg. On some occasions, the Prius has managed (possibly more than) the maximum 90mpg that the gauge can show, over four or five consecutive 5-minute periods. But that was only around 5 miles of actual travel; once I include the 50 mile trip down to London the average is rather less impressive.

Andrew Martin wrote:

I also tried BMW technical support who were quite insistent that no bio-diesels were to be used in their engines ...

BMW officially approved the use of RME (Rape Methyl Ester, aka biodiesel) in the 320d, 330d, 520d, 525d and 530d way back in April 2001. They did however apply an extra charge for "converting" a vehicle to biodiesel. This was supposed to be for replacing the fuel filter, as biodiesel may dissolve or dislodge sediments accumulated while running on fossil oil. Presumably it would be unnecessary if you ran on biodiesel from new.

See: http://www.campa-biodiesel.de/cadeunof/cadnaktu.htm

... and indeed, having since purchased a BMW, it clearly says in side the petrol filler flap that no such fuel should be put in the tank.

"*Petrol*" filler flap?

:O

i would love to own a hybrid car, but untill someone makes them in my price range i will have to settle for second hand cars, and you don't find many second hand hybrid cars for about £2000

I drive a small 1.0l petrol car which does in excess of 50mpg, my husband drives a new diesel 2.0l which does in excess of 55 mpg and we both pay a reduced amount of VEL. We looked at a hybrid when we changed the diesel car but didn't consider them value for money taking into account the additional cost for not much more mpg than the car we purchased. If in fact there was any benefit as according to TOp Gear, Clarkson disputed the MPG figures given by the manufacturers! As an aside when replacing my car I looked at the new VEL charts but couldn't find any of the "free" cars. Anyone any ideas what they are!

I have owned a Prius for exactly two years, and have just paid £30 for my year's tax disc, and another £10 to be exempted from the London congestion charge for the coming year. Very satisfying. But I would like to know how Bob Morris (No. 19) got insurance for as little as £198.
I agree with all the Prius praise in comments such as 1, 12, 16, 73. It is a car with great performance and every mod con. I am mystified, though, by the petrol consumption figures. The 65.7 mpg figure claimed in the brochure and in the Guardian review is simply rubbish. How do they get away with it? Equally mystifying to me are the more modest figures in other comments. I have kept a record of all petrol purchases throughout the two years, and my figure is 45 mpg. My only other reservation concerns the lack of visibility for parking. As with other modern cars with drop-down bonnets, you can only guess where the front of the car is.
Notwithstanding those two reservations, I am very pleased I bought a Prius, and if it disappeared I would make the same choice again.

Some interesting comments here, although a number seem to be based on pretty inaccurate information (such as the warranty period for the Prius)

We own both a Prius and a dual fuel (lpg) Volvo V70. I'm averaging 54 to 55mpg so far after 10,000 miles. The Volvo is getting the equivalent of approx 52 mpg. Both are excellent vehicles.

I accept that the Prius is very expensive for what it is. You do get a fully functioning built in sat nav system which I find very useful for work and also an integrated bluetooth system for mobile phone calling. It is a comfortable drive, appears very reliable so far, has loads of safety features (5 * crash tested) and is actually pretty spacious (although not in the V70 league). It's not very exciting to drive but I'm more interested in efficient A to B motoring these days. The manufacturers claim of 65mpg doesn't seem achievable unless you drive everywhere at 30mph. I'm driving it for the low Co2 emission as much as the mpg (+ the generous capital allowance for business use). We dismissed diesel powered cars because of the particulates emissions. I've read that the next generation Prius could be achieving more than 100mpg which would, I think, make it extremely popular. Fast foward 10 years and you will see a significant proportion of new cars using hybrid technology along with high efficiency diesels and lpg cars. Can't see bioethanol or hydrogen taking off anytime soon (hydrogenuse would entail huge infrastructure costs and other manufacturing and containment difficulties)

The Volvo is a great car. It's a factory fitted lpg system and the onyl downside I've experienced is the relatively frequent refilling (220 mile range).

There's room for all types of car in the market but I don't see petrol prices going anywhere but up in the future so fuel efficiency will be the number one priority for all but the super rich before too long. The peak oil issue and global security problems will see to that.

To Tim O'malley. You prove the point very well that to prime motive for LPG is saving money and there is nothing wrong with that. However taking your figures in terms of pence per mile your 24 mpg on LPG at 39.9p / L = 7.5 pence/ mile. Take a 55mpg diesel at 99.9p /L =8.2 pence / mile or a 60mpg Prius (I achieved this over a 3 day test drive) at 98.9 p/L = 7.45 pence /mile.

They all come out about the same but the day you can't find LPG and have to drive on Petrol you are looking at 30mpg (you said not much difference I'll be generous) Petrol 98.9 p/L = 14.9 pence / mile. No wonder you like LPG.

OK I've got my Prius goggles on and everything in the world is rosy, it's a choice we make, I have looked seriously at LPG myself it's not bad stuff the pump price of LPG is very attractive but how long for?

n.b. I have used recent pump prices not the abnormally low prices we see this week.

The general opinion of those who are posting seems to be against Hybrids and for diesels, however maybe we should look beyond our wallets and look at health and more importantly our childrens health.
I have included some links worth looking at

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/diesel_lung_cancer.html
http://www.icr.ac.uk/research/research_highlights/5864.shtml
http://www.iconmag.co.uk/page.php?n=196
http://www.peopleandplanet.net/doc.php?id=1231
http://www.no-incinerator.org.uk/DT%20Air%20Pollution.htm

Well.... I drive a LPG car - got out of the company car taking the cash instead - Purchased a 2nd hand LPG C5 for £5500 - have covered abt 60000 miles is 18 months and would say that i've saved over £3000 by comparison to petrol - So by next year it will have paid for itself and I've put the money from the company in my pocket and not been crippled by the so called company car tax! I'm also going to claim tax releif on the difference on what the company pay me per mile against the goverment recommenced limits and understand that its possible to claim back devaluation etc also - to my £99 accountant tells me - still to see this but who knows - All I can say is LPG has been good for me - Hybrids im sure will come good also - my mobile phone battery is 100 times smaller - and lasts 100 times longer than it did 15 years ago - but as many have said - its cheap as the taxman is not on it yet - when it gets really popular - he will get is teeth into it and tax it to hell and back - We they just need to find something else - I hear that 'steam' might be making a come back with 'biomass' fuels - not much use for cars due to bulk perhaps - but who knows

Hi, no doubt I would by LOREMO if it would be available, but know I am concidering opting for Toyota (prius, aigo or yaris)

Love

A few musings on the subject. Regenerative braking is fundamentally a very good idea. Whenever a conventional car brakes, be it through the wheel brakes or engine braking, kinetic energy is dissipated and not recovered. Being able to recover that energy (or at least a reasonable proportion of it) is a good thing. However storing it may be more of a problem - battery technologies have finite life and their own disposal issues.

A serious hybrid car needs to be a good car first and a hybrid second. The Prius is the other way round. To make a successful hybrid car, something like a Ford Focus would be a much better starting point, as a car which has gained much praise for its abilities. At the moment hybrids are a gimmick and if you want one you're stuck with a nasty car. If the Prius was not a hybrid, people would not buy it on its merits as car.

Most importantly however, the whole current flap over emissions, Carbon dioxide and global warming is, as someone else has noted (57) based on very shaky claims. See for example http://www.clearlight.com/~mhieb/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html

According to the data presented on this page, the human contribution to global warming from CO2 emissions is negligible - even if all the cars in the world were removed it would make next to no difference.

The real issue is that reserves of fossil fuels are finite, so if hybrid technology can be used to increase fuel economy, there is a benefit. At the moment, however, you could get a better car for much less money than the Prius in the first place. Until you can get hybrid technology in a car worth driving, leave the hybrids to the hair-shirted yoghurt-knitters!

Would I buy one: No, too dear when bought new, low MPG, heavy.

For me it's biodiesel all the way baby!! :-)

you can't put LPG on diesel engines but can force vehicle manufactures to put battery-charging capable brakes on each of their production. And that would make offset the cost of this technology way faster than producing a Prius that costs +/- 7k more than a good diesel runner.

To "Pat W" )#55 - http://www.petrolprices.com/blog/would-you-buy-a-hybrid-car-2.html#comment-55

There are manufacturers who sell LPG cars from new - Volvo have now stopped selling LPG Bi-Fuel cars (in UK) but in Sweden sell CNG powered cars. That leaves Vauxhall who produce "dual-fuel" cars, such as Astra's and Vectra's. I think Ford also do one or two models as standard.

To "Mark Craig" #67 - http://www.petrolprices.com/blog/would-you-buy-a-hybrid-car-2.html#comment-67

My V70 (2.4litre, 140 bhp) returns the same MPG (+/- a bit, depending on road conditions etc) when running on LPG, as it does on petrol. But the LPG costs less than half the price (39.9p @ Morrisons, vs petrol @ 98p).

To "Malcolm Sewell" #73 - http://www.petrolprices.com/blog/would-you-buy-a-hybrid-car-2.html#comment-73

You've hit the nail on the head. My V70 only has a 50 litre LPG tank (45 litre usable capacity), and a 25 litre petrol tank. I can get around 230 miles from 45 litres of LPG, giving around 24 MPG. So, I'm always on the look-out for LPG-equipped filling stations...!

I drive a Vectra 2.0 lt Auto on LPG. I bought it already converted for £3,800 and it had done 60k it has now done 80k and i have had it 2 years.
In that time I have found more garages selling it, and have this year driven all over the country without needing to use petrol for more than a few miles at a time. Morrisins seem to be the cheapest with a countrywide price of 39.9p and consumption locally is about 20 percent less than on petrol, but on a run it is only about 10 percent less depending on how heavy footed you are. All in all it costs me about half what it would if used petrol. The only downside is the filling up , which can be a pain, many of the service stations only have one pump and it is often not clearly marked, then there is the actual connection which is not always easy, so if you dont have any patience , its not for you. Also, the tanks are not big enough in general, so you fill up more often, and I run without a spare tyre now, instead I carry a refil can for punctures. My friends have converted a Focus and a toyota 4x4 one for towing a horse box and one for high local mileage. Most high mileage drivers love it. so buying a secondhand one is difficult as you have to expect a high mileage, and if it isnt then be suspicious.
BP have a lot of LPG pumps, but they charge consistently over the odds, for example, at least 48.9p . I find 43.9p is about as good as it gets, unless you can find a Morrisons. Total seem to be the next best on average at 43.9
My tank generally takes 34 litres and at 10p a litre difference that makes £3.40 between Morrisons and BP per tankfull.

Are hybrid cars really that much in demand? It would appear that the initial purchase price outweighs the savings unless really high mileage is required. Until prices come down and hybrid performance is on a par with the average family car, there isn't going to be much of a seller's market! In turn, it's only when public demand is heightened the car companies will put money into developing a good hybrid.
Similarly, how much longer is the emissions issue going to be a priority with car buyers, bearing in mind the much publicised recent news release that the hole in the ozone layer is 'repairing' itself and getting smaller. The hybrid car may have already had it's day!

I regard the Toyota Prius and its ilk as a stopgap until vehicles powered by hydrogen fuel cells become readily available. Even though i am an avowed "Petrolhead", it's becoming increasingly clear that our ecosystem is suffering due to our reliance on fossil fuels. Unfortunately, hybrid vehicles don't really help as much as some would have us believe. The motor manufacturers push hybrid technology because it allows them to use existing production facilities to manufacture the vehicles. It's time for one of the major manufacturers to take a leap of faith and develop a site solely geared to the production of fuel cell power plants and vehicles. We, the consumers, can play a powerful part in that decision, for it is up to us to tell the government and car industry that we want and need to speed up development and construction of the infrastructure, to give this exciting new technology a chance to thrive.

I have read with interest the above comments and am amazed at the acceptance of this governments thirst for our money, the iniquitous tax on fuels should become a major influence on electoral ambitions, then we may see our food and cost of living spiral reduced.

I have had my Prius for two years it has been an excellent car and without any problems. The car is ahead of the rest with fly by wire technology and a host of innovative developments. The design is being followed by other major manufacturers and the car is a huge success in the US.
The low noise, low emission, exceptional town driving versatility, coupled with a superb level of comfort and ride, make it just so easy to drive and one of the best vehicles to own on our overcrowded roads. Who wants a gas guzzling 'chelsea tractor' with the finesse of a bouncing brick or a noisy rumbling roadster when you can have the benefits of a Toyota Prius?

I would like to be able to afford a hybrid car .If I could I would buy one ,they are a very good idea . Perhaps they will come down in price. But the government needs to offer incentives to the public

A different post for a different theme.

Many posters have pointed out (quite rightly) that diesels do better mpg than petrol hybrids. OK they do but how many petrol cars can match the Prius and it's counterparts, Lets compare like with like.
Not many boasts about mileage from LPG. LPG is a clean fuel and would be burnt off as a wast product if not used on the road so it is very good in that respect but it will not give the mileage of Petrol or Diesel.



These cars all do less than 120g CO2 / Km
http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/information/how-to-use-the-data-tables.asp#petrol
Good sized 4/5 door family cars that are cleaner and give better than mpg than a Smart car are at the top of the list. Guess what , they are hybrids.

Many people here have expressed the view that the gov should be providing more incentives to use cleaner cars. I for one think that they already are (I think they could do more) I have just ordered my next company car, it will be a Toyota Prius, it will be the most expensive car I have ever had but it will cost me less than any car I have had before.

Cars with CO2 below 120g/Km are taxed much less, the Prius is taxed at 12% of it's P11D value. My current car (Vaux zafira 2L D) is taxed at 25% of it's P11D value.
If you buy one yourself the VED (road tax) is £30 and remember less fuel means less tax.

Lot of posts here since my original one and like some others said there is a lot of mis-information about the Prius. I do find it amazing that those who 'knock' the hybrid are prepared to go to print with incorrect information as if they are facts.
In case as one writer wrote "I am always supsicious of who is writing them because I prefer to believe the professiosal writers who in the main are all against them" I can assure you that I for one am not connected in any way to Toyota, working for a commercial subsidiary of a University I am involved with Safety Assessments and have a lot of experience with vehicles. Also if all the proffesional writers were against hybrids, they must have had a brainstorm when a significant majority awarded the Prius "Car of the Year" in 2005. Even the few who didn't vote for it gave it very high marks overall.

Environmentally the car does cost more in pollution initially in production, but Toyota have demonstrated that the savings in emissions quickly cancel that out and over the life of the Prius significant savings are made.

"Someone" commented that the car is ugly! Well beauty is in the eye of the beholder and in true Spike Milligan style I could suggest Optrex!

Finally for me, well there are way too many questions, on the subject of diesel - yuk all those particulates etc. Just stand next to a diesel in a city traffic jam. The Prius not only is cleaner, but switches the Combustion Engine off in a queue.

Sure if you want a little tiny car - my wife drives a Yaris, you'll get similar figures - sometimes better, sometime worse. But the point for me is that the Prius is big. You have to compare like with like.

Hopefully more variations on the hybrid will materialise to give more choice.

Phil

A Hybrid van would be good but I am Self Employed in Leeds supplying a Handyman Service and have no other way but to use a diesel Van and I am appalled at the spiralling cost of diesel over the past year -- traditionally diesel used to be cheaper than petrol and no comments have been made in the press about this rise I E diesel is now higher than petrol - the press only seem to comment on petrol going up again but in my eyes seem to ignore diesel .

WHAT most people seem to forget if diesel increases then living costs increase, because how do we receive most of our goods -- food etc and services – by vans and most vans / lorries etc rely on diesel to run, until we find a cost effective Hybrid Van to supply this service we are stuck and need to move in a separate way to solving our probs I E diesel vans at the moment is our only way to serve people so we need to look at this first.

So think on this for a bit what happens ??? to costs of goods etc they rise because diesel transport costs rise !!! NO EXTRA PROFIT to the supplier I must add just brake even on service supplied.

I understand that there are variations in price due to oil but it could send a small business under if the cost rises to high and the net result is job loss, as a member of the F S B – Federation of Small Business ( Please Note Iam NOT SPEAKING ON THERE BEHALF IN ANY WAY ONLY AS MYSELF) our organisation is aware of this and campaigns on this issue.

BUT Until the general public are aware of the major impact this price hike REALLY HAS, the attitude of OH OK !! petrol has ONLY gone up by x pence a ltr --- 4.5 ltr to the gallon so WHAT !! will not change -- I must point out until this attitude changes and it MUST change and change soon we need to keep a campaign going.

I as a small business over this past year have had to mostly swallow this hike and keep my service price reasonable but this is now a MAJOR JOKE.

A major campaign like this blogg and hounding the press & Gov with new worthy points ALL THE TIME is another way to WAKE THE U K PUBLIC UP !!! – as brits the stiff upper lip is starting to tremble a bit now and as we have seen in supermarket price rises, they (THE GENERAL PUBLIC THAT IS) are only just beginning to realise the impact of fuel cost now !!!

Anyone out there that feels the same as me needs to band together or use all the contacts we have, and ask the Gov to reach a reasonable compromise, I E DUTY & TAX ON FUEL What’s that all about ???

Why not One Flat Rate ?? which is easier to vary if things get bad , as if the price rises at the pump the Tax & Duty go up, past the projections made by the Gov ---- so more profits to the Gov over and above the projections made --- if the public ignore this -- we the U K will pull ourselves under with the apathy we have at this moment, INSTEAD of moving forward as we have been and improving our quality of life in the U K we need to ALL work together --- find an effective low cost hybrid Van and in the mean time sort out diesel costs to survive as a nation & not pull in separate directions (Gov & Public ) as we are at the moment.

I have been looking at the Hybrids recently but not impressed by either the look of the Toyota or the Honda, both are too big and ugly also heavy looking and have the batteries in a spot which stops you from folding down the back seats, if you need to at any time. I have a Honda Civic at the present time and if I were to buy a hybrid I would need it to feel different to driving the Honda, but it doesnt feel a lot different. Being a lady driver I would need to wait until a smaller hybrid car comes available with batteries that are not so big and heavy. I also think they are too expensive at the present time for someone of my age group,( 60's) hurry up and bring out something that pensioners can afford, after all most of us are on the breadline.

I am awaiting delivery of my new Honda Civic Hybrid (promised early November, ordered back in April).

Managed to negotiate down to £16,200 on the road for leather trim with no trade-in incl 3yrs service, 3yr AA.

Attracted by Honda reputation for reliability (includes 10 year warranty on battery and electric power unit) , looking forward to town driving economy and £30 road tax. Insurance quotes no worse than other cars.

Whilst I know diesel offers best economy I wanted an automatic and a bit of luxury with lower running costs.

One press critiscism is that this model is only offered as a saloon, but the boot is very big with low loading lip, leg room back and front excellent, very quiet and comfortable - I was impressed with my half day test drive back in April

Time will tell, when it eventually arrives

Hi, I own a Land Rover discovery 2.5TDi, 1992.
And I think I'm doing my bit for the 'hybrid society', as I run mine on 20% Diesel and 80% PURE VEGTABLE OIL, cheapest you can get from supermarkets or other suppliers. 3ltr bottle approx £1.60, Diesel 3ltrs approx £3.00!!!
It just goes straight from the bottle into the tank, no mods or additives etc, just straight in.
I stand to be corrected, and know doubt I will be, but I believe when the diesel was invented, around the end of 1st world war, or between the 2 wars, they were designed to run on the likes of VEG OIL, because it was easier to get, and more plentiful, than Diesel.
Now, before using VEG OIL I was getting around 25mpg and now I average approx 32/33mpg, ok its not alot more, but think how much I'm saving in good old money!!!!
I use my car everyday for work, approx 20miles round trip, weekends if not playing around off-road, I'm up and down the country to Land Rover shows etc.
When I first added the VEG OIL I was a bit hesitant about it, but it ran smoother and alot quieter than ever.
I do know people who run their Landy's on PURE VEG OIL, but I'v opted to mix them. Its doing no harm what so ever.
Its CHEAPER, GREENER and sligtly more ECONOMICAL.
One point is that, to do it legally you MUST/SHOULD pay the tax on it, which still only brings it to around 75(ish)p per litre!!

having read your comments , why the likes of all the motor company's have spent millions pounds on investing in the hybrid car,eco friendly . when we all ready have one thats been around for a 100yrs is beyond me , when the diesel engine was first built it was desighed to run on peanut oil, you can not get anymore green than the , poor mr diesel died before he could get is engine patend, in step the oil people ,£££££££££. please go and google it theres plenty out about it , i do know some who's been running is diesel on 60/40 mix of diesel for about 4yrs with out any problems , the technolgy always been there , its wether the car manufactuers , and the goverment can make more money out of you . buy bringing out some thing new , all about .££££££££$$$$$$$$$$$$ thats all..

I just don't buy into all the enviromental propoganda that is forced down our throats.Hybrid cars are not going to make any significant impact while america and china continue to flout global agreements regarding greenhouse gases and they're not likely to change their ways in the near future.They are,however,a wonderful marketing opportunity for car manufacturers and pushing their use is a guaranteed vote winner for politicians.I'm sick of being branded an enviromental terrorist just because I drive a supercharged Jaguar.I'm not a criminal I just love driving a fantastic automobile and I pay for the privilege every time I fill up.Anyway the Prius is rubbish.CLARKSON FOR PRESIDENT !!!

The cost of a green car is more exspensive to buy and is not virable to have.
In the 50/60 most cars were max 1000cc and only the exspensive cars were higher. I grew up in London in the fifties and there was only two cars in the street I lived. I moved from the street 8 years ago because of the parking problems after over 40 years. I would buy an hybred if the price was around £10.000 or less. the prices of hybreds are kept high due to the fact that the car companies want to make a profit. All private cars should not be higher than 2000cc in size and every car should have a speed control built in so we can't speed me included.

This whole discussion about hybrid cars seems to me to be quite facile given that the whole CO2 argument is a load of tosh!

The build-up of CO2 in the atmosphere does not cause global warming, quite the converse, it is caused by global warming. This means that the current build-up is caused by warming which has already happened. We are, in fact, now entering a period of global cooling which started in 1998!!

Don't take my word for it, see the evidence based science, not the emotional eco c**p that we are fed by the greens and the government (as it brings in more tax revenue). You can find it at http://www.abd.org.uk/ then click on "Environment".

Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating that we squander our fossil fuels, as we need them to make our plastics etc. we should instead be concentrating or efforts on Hydrogen power and in the interim, bio fuels or any of the technologies that were bought up by the oil giants and killed off to protect their obscene profits.

Hybrid cars are the oil companies way of prolonging their gravy train. Bring on Hydrogen power!

Unfortunately half the reason I own a car is for the thrill of driving and as such performance and style means a lot to me. The current hybrid cars have (in general) quite poor performance and supremely bad styling. There are fast saloon hybrid cars emerging such as the GS450h from Lexus but these cars don't offer anywhere near large enough reductions in fuel consumption to warrent the extra purchasing and maintainance costs.

When low maintainance, high performance hybrid cars start to emerge then I shall consider buying one, but until then I shall be stuck with my 22mpg.

I was looking into getting my car converted to LPG - there are petrol stations supplying it close to both home and work - but then I found out the cost, and the amount of time it would take to recoup that cost. I might still consider it if and when I can afford to replace my now fairly clapped out car. I do fairly high mileage, and any saving helps. My questions would be - why did they withdraw the grant that used to be available to get your car converted to LPG? Surely the cost to reduce UK motoring's "carbon footprint" can't be that high? And why can't I find any manufacturer who sells LPG cars from new, rather than needing to pay for conversion and losing your spare tyre?

I have a 3 year old Citroen C3 1.4 HDi, bought for £5000. I commute on A-roads, about 70 miles a day, usually at around 50mph. Using the "tank brimming" technique already mentioned I calculate my average fuel consumption at 78.4mpg.

Town driving (in the centre of York) reduces my average to the mid to high 60s. Still about 10mpg better than any hybrid.

They are an expensive gimmick.

The current focus on carbon emissions has biassed the taxation system in favour of diesels. If we were to look at the other damaging effects of exhaust emissions, including oxides of nitrogen and benzopyrenes, we would see that diesel fuel is extremely harful both to air quality and to human health. A colleague of a friend of mine uses a substance identical to diesel fuel in a medical research project; COSHH regulations mean she has to werar protective clothing and only open the container in a fume cupboard.
If you look at the European Directives that define the tests for exhaust emisions you'll find there are different tests for petrol and diesel. I was told by an engineer who works for a company making catalysts/partiulate filters for diesels that the European tests do not get the filter hot enough to burn off the trapped carbon therefore much of the carbon produced is trapped in the filter unter the car is driven fast (above 50mph) for 20 minutes, when the trapped carbon, that has not been measured in the test, is burned off. I guess that when the majority of cars on the road are diesel engined, the manufacturers will "discover" the real pollution caused by diesel and promote something else as the "clean" technology.
I'm not convinced by hybrids either. It sounds a great idea to store the energy normally wasted in braking, and use it for subsequent acceleration, but how much energy is used, and pollution caused, to make (and eventually dispose of) the batteries and electric motors?
As for hydrogen, there are many problems to be overcome, including the dannger aspect of the high storage pressures. The most important though is how the hydrogen will be produced. Most likely seems to be electrolysis of water into oxygen and hydrogen. This consumes huge amounts of electricity, which is already in short supply, so if we switch to hydrogen-powered transport will we need a chain of nuclear power stations.
My final point is that the givernment seem to have lost interest in green transport, with the closure of Powershift and cessation of grants for efficient vehicles.

I think it is strange that the governments are not forcing the oil companies to release the patents that they bought off of inventors for cars that run off natural and harmless fuels.
Why is this not something that anyone seems to highlight?

Posted by Dave Russell, 23rd August 2006 6:19pm<------ I also want to to know why?. This is were are reliance would end with the oil companys and opps we would not pay half as much tax or is that it, no oil needed half as much tax recived theirs your answer.

I would consider swapping in my 4x4 for a Hybrid if the government helped with this, now at the moment they want more Hybrids bought in the UK and they want cars like what I own off the road, but what they don’t understand is why we buy these cars.
Its simple a lot of 4x4 you see on the road are now imports if you see a Mitsubishi 9 out of 10 times its now imported and you see them cos they are cheap you can get 1 for about £500 and its Diesel it will have about 12000 kilometers which will work out about 80000 miles bout’s, now you cant get a petrol car for that with that low mileage. And as we all know a Diesel engine will go easy over 200,000 miles if looked after so it’s a bargain really, so many people have bought these cars for that reason.
If the government wants people out of these cars then they need to offer an incentive and if they won’t us to buy Hybrids they need to offer it there but they don’t.
They expect for them to tell us what’s what and we say how high and jump.
As I said if they won’t me out of my 4x4 and into a Hybrid then offer me a huge discount for doing that don’t increase fuel cost I still have to get from A to B and also need to do other things and all increasing fuel does is increase a families out goings nothing more.

I think the other reason Hybrids don’t shift is simple we don’t trust the government and we know that when we start using these cars they will just TAX the back end out of us there. So what is the point we won’t get any financial benefit from using them and they are a huge out lay. When governments stop being so greedy and attacking the motorist with all there TAX then maybe things will change, but I don’t ever see that happening.