The boss of one of the leading car manufacturers has voiced his concerns at the idea of a total ban on combustion engines. Speaking at the Frankfurt Motor Show, Carlos Tavares, the head of PSA Peugeot Citroen and Vauxhall/Opel, has accused governments of putting the entire car industry at risk with their plans to focus almost solely on electric vehicles as the cars of the future.
Jobs at risk
In his speech, Tavares stated that governments dictating technology will create considerable strife within the motor industry. More than that, it will put finances and jobs at risk. It could even lead to new health and safety issues that future governments will be solely responsible for.
He said that we are moving from a “technology neutral era” to an “instruction to go electric.” This shift is at the expense of other technologies, such as the highly efficient PSA Hybrid Air system. The focus on only electric vehicles puts the scientific responsibility firmly into the hands of governments. As such, if in two or three decades, there are problems with health or safety issues due to this switch to electric, governments will need to face the consequences of their narrow outlook.
Unsustainable industry
The Portuguese car boss also criticised the current heavily subsidised market for electric cars. He argued that this is a poor basis for dictating their adoption. It could risk profitability and therefore jobs for car manufacturers. In fact, Tavares went so far as to say that it could even impact the sustainability of the entire motor industry:
“If you have ministers in Europe who say they will forbid the use of internal combustion engines, then I have to comply and we will have to transform, re-engineer and retrain. But if electrification is not profitable in future, we all have a problem,”
He also called for a wider debate on the question of the forced move to electric cars from an affordability perspective. Electric vehicles cost more than their petrol or diesel equivalents, meaning that fewer people could be able to afford a car in future. This is a much wider social issue and one that should be open for discussion.
Practical concerns
In addition to worries about the overall effect of the switch to electric, others are more concerned about the practical concerns associated with electric cars. One example is the question of what we should do with the lithium-ion batteries in cars once they run out. Tiny lithium-ion batteries are in use in many devices and already use a lot of resources – around $2 billion in metals and minerals in 2015 alone. Most of these end up in landfill sites or sit unused in devices around the home.
The battery in a car is obviously much bigger and will last a lot longer. However, there is still a suspected limit of around 8-10 years for each battery. This will mean that the already spiralling demand for the components for these batteries will rapidly increase as more electric cars reach the road. This will increase prices for raw materials. Cobalt, for example, has risen 80% in the last year. It also raises the question of how we dispose of batteries that have reached the end of their life without negatively impacting the environment.
Power infrastructure
The other big consideration is the infrastructure needed to power these cars. Estimates say that billions will be needed to create new power plants, grid network and charging points for electric vehicles. Some predict local power shortages when the ban on petrol and diesel cars come into force.
Overnight charging should make the process more manageable, but there is still a lot of work to be done if electric cars are going to become the dominant force on the UK’s roads.
Is government policy pushing us towards electric vehicles when we should be considering other options? Will the car industry – and the power grid – be able to cope with the mass electrification of our cars? As ever, share your views below.
Well as always with goverments when minerstes get involved with tech problems eg IT for dwp and health service upgrade
Child surport agency farce was at best meddled with by none tech goverment persons in meeting after meeting with add on we can do this as well . Without any idea how it might be done or if it could be intergrated into exsisting inferstucter .
Here we go again power grid nearly at full capacity no roadside charging points to speak of .
Most familys have 2 cars and a lot of older homes dont even have a space out the front of homes for off road parking so how do they charge cars cables over the payment.
63 rd point lol
Most electric car charging units for home use are wired into a 32 amp circuit breaker as current draw is as much as a cooker or a
a shower so in the standed home most of the uk it leaves 31 amps for home use. So have a cooker on or shower and your at main fuse level capacity . Without the rest of the family use.
Ah what about the 2nd car that needs to be charge .
2 x 32 charges are on limit of main fuse.
Put larger fuse in you say ….no not much of a choice as if all the street are charging at same time the cable up the street and sub station are not big enough. By a long way off…… when fitted it was done useing a expected load plus known average use and a load balacing factor befoe electric cars was an option en mass.
So cables in every street need upgrading sub stations and cables to homes.
Thats why we have this smart meter tech being rolled out so they can use just in time tariff charging at peak times still not working yet
Regards all
Oh sorry most homes are on a 63 amp main fuse
All I know is that amp stands for amperes. I suspect you are implying that most homes cannot recharge a car battery. Why not spell it out?
I had a post removed thats why above comment makes no sense
Depends how rural you are. On a long overhead line shared with several other people, you might only be allowed 40 amps. In a new estate, maybe 100 amps. And your charger might want 70 or 80 amps.
However, supply companies rely on a “diversity factor” — i.e. praying that different houses take showers, boil kettles etc at random times that are unlikely to overlap. Overnight charging takes hours, so they are all likely to be on at once.
Your whole street probably has a 400 amps fuse at the supply end, so the sixth recharger takes the whole street out (even those without electric cars).
I think this is quite a negative and short-sighted argument. the rise of electric cars will only be a success if we have a greater level of energy in the grid and cheap electricity. So electrics cars can take up the unwanted energy, such as at night or excess from renewable energy during the daytime.
Electric cars are the future, its this transition period that will be painful for some.
Clive, you are absolutely right. What many don’t realise is that we are looking at a completely new model for energy generation and storage. Clearly, 100% electric car ownership would not work with the present infrastructure but that will change.
As the price of electric vehicles falls and the range increases people will find that their views toward petrol and diesel vehicles changes quicker than they imagine and they will consider them old-fashioned and dirty. When the Tesla Model 3 arrives next year, new car buyers will have the option of buying an electric car that is an attractive alternative to similarly priced petrol and diesel models.
I must say a work colleague bought a Tesla 3 years ago and loves it. He says he will never go back to an ICE and had just bought a new Tesla for his wife. He says it takes a little planning for a long journey however he has a good map / app telling him the charging points and wether they are fast charge or not. He says there are already quite a number of charge stations and growing at 10 per week. I guess it’s ok for him now as not so many people have EV’s to clog up the filling stations, if we go all electric there may be queues.
I do agree with the comment about it only being as green as the electric generation and the fact that the government should just say what the emissions should be, not dictate the cars must be electric.
Yes but ?!….who is going to organise the massive structural changes required to the grid etc.Oh yes,I forgot…the government of course.The same crew who are STILL promising high speed broadband for everyone by 2016.Or, who spend money like it is going out of fashion on wonderful aircraft carriers that there are no aircraft or crew for…and please don’t forget Brexit, as if we could ?!
Tavares was the man who put the PSA Hybrid Air system on hold due to a lack of interest from other companies and the huge engineering cost. I haven’t heard of this system being brought back online!
Why can’t governments dictate that all vehicles must have zero harmful emissions, leaving the industry to develop whatever technologies meet that requirement?
But there is no such thing as zero harmful emissions, certainly in the foreseeable future. Renewable electricity sources are pretty good, but not nearly enough so you have to burn fossil fuels to generate the power in inefficient power stations and then transmit it down inefficient networks which aren’t up to the job anyway as EVs increase. Those combined inefficiencies exceed those of IC engines even ignoring the environmental issues with the batteries themselves, meaning that there is arguably a greater, more sustainable, future for hybrid cars than electric ones.
Solar roof glass tiles are already in the foreseeable future. They’ll be standard in new house builds and will actually be cheaper to lay than standard roofs. Surplus will go the grid for the small number of properties that are not suitable.
If we are all going to have overnight charging, then there is not going to be a whole lot of surplus solar power around that can be used.
I spent 4 years on contract with a UK electricity distribution company. My job was to collect data and make forecasts of power usage based on official projections (central and local government). This was to be used for costing reinforcement of the distribution network (everything below national grid level) and all the companies had to do it. The idea was to quantify and cost the upgrades needed from now to 2038 in seven year jumps.
The process was pitiful. Most of the local authorities came up with the same %age estimates because they collaborated (i.e. cheated). Most of the central government figures were blind guesswork. Example: how many electric vehicles will there be in the UK by 2021? Exactly one million. That must have taken all of ten seconds to decide. The whole process was entirely pointless.
Several big issues did come up:
(a) The whole electrical system is already running close to capacity, such that large companies are being bribed to accept short-notice shut-downs so that the public (i.e. voters) don’t see power cuts.
(b) At a local level, something over 30% of consumers are on a different supply cable to what records say they are, so all the statistics are invalid anyway.
(c) The electrical system was designed to send power outwards. It can’t accept net infeeds from local generation like solar and wind turbines, because all the voltage control and safety protection mechanisms are unstable in the backfeed direction.
Don’t worry about your household supply not being able to handle your recharge. If there are more than 6 electric cars in your street, you will blow the feed from your local transformer and everybody will be in the dark together.
Well said,and at last someone who knows what they are talking about.It is a shame that the government does not have people like you to inform them before they make these ridiculous decisions just to cover their backsides.
Herr Kiss,
That would be why they fired me. They couldn’t argue with my statistics, but they couldn’t accept my conclusions either.
well, that’s how the banks worked is it not? they didn’t like what their risk managers were telling them so they fired them, hired outside consultants and got the answers they wanted.
Then when it went belly up, called up gordon brown and said “what are you going to do about it?”
So you go on about how everybody guessed at figures then you guess at the last figure. 6 cars in a street will blow the supply? How big is this street? what rate are the cars charging? How far away is the transformer? How old is the transformer? I could go on but then your sweeping statement will make even less sense.
I live in a house built in 1889, there are 3 electric cars in the street we are coping, the 10 500w street light bulbs have just been changed to LED’s and I only charge my electric toothbrush on monday mornings. No need for scaremongering with guesses.
No guesswork involved, David. I worked on data analysis in the electrical industry for 30 years, including at the National Grid control centre. And it doesn’t matter how long the street is.
Almost all domestic distribution networks are built from 3-phase underground XPLE-insulated aluminium cables laid direct in the soil. This stuff only carries 400A from the local 11kV/430V transformers, and one cable will usually service all the houses down one side of a street. Each phase is protected by a 400A fuse at the transformer end to protect against overcurrent — either a fault, somebody digging it up, or just cumulative load. In areas with sandy soil, the cable will overheat more because the soil is a better insulator, and these are often fused at 300A. The cables run from transformer to transformer, but they are always left open circuit at one end to avoid circulating currents between the 11kV supplies. So one side of your street can only have 400A shared between all the properties in it.
My house can use well over 100 amps at once. I can have a shower (40A) while my wife cooks a meal (30A for 3 rings and an oven), puts on the washing (15A), the dishwasher (15A) and boils a kettle (10A). And then she runs a bath and the immerser kicks in (15A). That’s 125 amps. It should blow the house fuse (100A or 80A) but we get away with it, mainly because there are thermostats clicking in and out at different times, and the shower, washing machine, dishwasher and immerser all have short heating cycles that are unlikely to overlap.
— continued —
The same problem arises at street level. The average 24/7 domestic demand is around 6 amps. But that can only average over a fairly large number of houses. If 20 people get up exactly at 7am and go in an electric shower, that’s 800 amps. The whole system relies on “diversity” — that people do not synchronise their lives, and there is enough randomness to avoid the worse peaks.
This happens at a national level too. The Grid has an area in the control room that continually shows TV — news, sports, etc. They arrange extra generation on standby for the intervals and ends of events like major football matches, finals for Strictly, election results, Wimbledon. They know that ten million kettles will go on at once. They also monitor for breaking news that may mess up all their plans. If Princess Di had died at tea-time instead of overnight, we would have had major power cuts across the UK, maybe lost the whole system for several hours.
Incidentally, the Grid has been continuously running since 1924, with equipment added over the years. It is conceivable that it could in fact all be taken down by a single event — the USA had a cut in 2003 that affected 55 million people. Europe had one in 2006 that spread as far as Poland, Portugal, Greece and Morocco. There is a simulator that is used to eveluate how you do a “Black Start” on the UK Grid. To date, nobody has ever succeeded in getting the system back up under that simulation. The Grid is stable only as a complete unit — each section depends on something else already being running.
The issue with demand for night storage heaters and electric car chargers is that it has no diversity. You plug it in, and the demand is there for six hours continuously, until the concrete blocks are all hot or the battery voltage reaches the cut-off point. The standard car charger is rated at 7.7kW, which at 230V is 33.5 amps. Even if you can persuade your neighbours to get up at 2am to plug theirs in, there will still be long periods of complete overlap. And meanwhile, the usual background demands are still in there.
You are supposed to be buying washing machines that can turn themselves on at night to avoid peaks in daytime demand. You are supposed to have a smart meter that can negotiate with other houses in your street to flatten demand too. It is going to be like waiting for a shower in the gym, but without the backchat. Meanwhile, under every street, there is a bunch of equipment that was designed and build 50 years ago to meet the demands of an entirely different technological lifestyle. Suddenly adding a demand that can replace the entire output of the petrochemical industry is a ridiculous requirement.
Eggsactly lith batteries are not zero emission to make or dispose. And costs 5 times new value to tecycle them. Tavares is no mug. And Li is only good for 5 years then capacity around 50% after 10 years capacity 10% if it works at all.
It has been demonstrated that Tesla batteries (in cars) have lasted over 400k miles with 93% charge still available. (see http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-400k-km-250k-mi-7-percent-battery-degradation/)
Oh, and there is a 10-year warranty.
No, sorry, the latest generation of Li batteries can go about 1000 charge/discharge cycles before dropping to about 80% of their capacity. This could equate to 10-15 years and the battery would still be eminently useable. Many already have an 8 year guarantee on them, so the manufacturers are quite happy that their life will probably be considerably more.
You’re thinking of phone batteries Step. Those in cars are much more advanced and expected to last 15 years at least. 400,000kms been seen in Teslas to only reduce usable charge by 7%
Because we don’t live in a dictorial country we say they do the last time I looked. That the problem with this country it ran by idiots.
The Muppet’s in power think no further than the next sound bite. The carbon footprint of an electric car must be far higher than any conventional car made at the moment.
As long as we don’t see any damage done to the environment in this country then it’s OK. The next place to be completely trashed is the oceans. To get the various metals in sufficient quantities for the batteries and all the other technical bits, they are thinking we will have to mine the oceans to get sufficient quantities of rare earth metals, so that’s them gone for a Burton and all the creatures in them. Much better to kill the human race off who are causing the problem with emissions in the first place, than killing the oceans and the surface of the world mining rare metals to make sodding batteries that last 8-10 years then pollute the World by scrapping them.
As for the Grid it’s creaking as it is, with the dash away from coal (which we sit on hundreds of years of supplies), industry will have to shut down to divert the power to charge the cars we will be using and the batteries used by the grid to store backup power to use at night and when high pressure is sitting over Britain in the winter months, when we get no wind and weak sunlight.
Batteries are about, I believe 1/3 of the cost of electric cars, so instead of keeping cars going for 15-20 years, people will decide to scrap the car after 8 years because the price of a new battery is so high it’s not worth keeping the car, just like we do with mobile phones and other consumables, nothing is worth repairing these days (built in obsolescence), so it’s made again to add to the mess we’re making.
. I could rant on for hours about the whole thing because it all absolutely crazy.
From where do you get your “facts”?
The metals required for the current generation of batteries need mining, yes, but there is little difference between this and the continued extraction of oil throughout the life of the car. The next generation may well use glass.
Lithium is not a “rare earth metal”.
There are already Teslas that have done more than 200,000 miles and the current estimate is that their batteries will be down too about 80% of their capacity after 1000 charging cycles, about 250,000 miles, about 20 years at 12,000 miles a year. 80% is still useable and the batteries can be recycled, unlike the burnt petrol or diesel.
We do sit on large coal reserves (probably) but we aren’t mining them any more because they are so polluting when burnt.
With the widespread adoption of wind, solar and possibly tidal power generation with local storage the strain on the grid isn’t going to be anything like as bad.
I agree that high pressure in winter often means little wind, but it also means clear skies and this maximises the solar available.
Batteries will easily outlive your average ICE car. 400,000kms have been reported to only reduce usable power by 7% on one person’s Tesla over 3 years so 15 years with normal usage should be achievable. At the end of the this batteries are easily recyclable.
The I3 has a low carbon footprint as a lot of the materials are recycled and it is put together in Leipzig at a factory totally powered by wind.
Finally suggest you read up about Lithium as it is abundant on earth 🙂
A “person” did 400,000 kms in 3 years? I make that an average of 83,000 miles per year. So that’s 360 miles every working day, 6 hours at 60mph.
That’s not a “person”. That’s a Tesla test, under carefully controlled conditions, probably on a smooth level test track under closely monitored conditions, with a highly optimised recharging strategy.
The Leipzig factory might be powered by wind (more likely hot air), but its raw materials are mined in places like the Atacama Desert, using the biggest diesel trucks you ever saw, and diesel draglines, and diesel pumps for the saline solution that dissolves the lithium salts and sterilises the soil forever. Lithium is rare and evil.
As for “abundant” lithium, if you divide known reserves of 20 million tons amongst 8 billion people, we get 2.5 kilograms each. What do you plan to do with yours?
Paul, it was a Finnish taxi driver called Ari Nyyssönen that covered those miles and there is estimated to be just over a billion cars in the world – your assumption that every person (including children) has a car is a bit off. More reserves will be uncovered in future as in years gone by, it wasn’t economically viable but now the demand is there 😉
abundant, yes, but very difficult to extract without huge diesel earth moving equipment etc.
and as for 400,000kms, that may be fine in a CAR. not much use in goods vehicles (ive been driving vans for years and 700 miles in a DAY isn’t unheard of for me, to allow me to make a living, I HAVE to)
Where are the combined stakeholder meetings to back up these governmental decisions .
Like most of these statements from government they seem to have very little planning and consideration of the consequences.
Rather than prescriptive technology an objective to achieve zero emissions by an agreed date after in depth investigation would be more believable.
If its overnight charging where do you pull into to refuel when you are coming home from an extended trip? Is the overnight stay going to be funded by government. What if there is an unforeseen emergency at home and the overnight stay is not practical.
What about the revenue stream, what about the Arab State investment in UK property and the tragic effects from that.
Brain dead springs to mind with this blanket policy from the Politicians, yet again never thought through. Knee jerk policies just handed out.
Depends where you live, but here they’re at every service station 🙂
I would like to know how you charge your car overnight if like me, you live in a high rise block of flats with very limited parking as it is at the moment. Electric Cars sound brilliant in principle, but………..
they don’t actually want most people to own cars. they know that most can’t own cars for us to continue functioning, due to cost, inconvenience etc.
So necessity and the market will determine who gets to own, and the govt is quite happy with that state of affairs. Others will have to change their lives to “live”
more locally, use public transport, taxis or hire cars etc etc.
They don’t really care if you are inconvenienced.
ive yet to see a charger in most UK service stations!
My local car park has got one. Never worked since it was installed.
Perhaps the solution is to have battery changing stations, you roll up with a nearly flat battery. Stop and while you have a coffee the attendant changes the battery out for a full one, you pay the fee and go on your way and he charges the battery up for the next customer. With a quick release and re-connect system it wouldn’t take too long.
This would also remove the need for overnight charging at everyone’s home and the life of the battery could be finely worked out.
Only down side is it would mean the manufacturers would need to get together and use the same system and the same shape of battery.
Yeah Tesla trialled this but it was a flop unfortunately. Waiting times too long and too costly for consumers. Also if you’ve looked after your batteries well avoiding deep charges etc you probably don’t want to swap it with someone else’s.
Ecotricity cover the majority of motorways. Along with other providers charge points are all over the place, there are a few different map apps where you can see this.
All current model BEVs come with at least the option of fast charging. Yes you have the convenience of charging slowly at home, but if you need to extend your range you just plug into a fast charger and you’re done in 20-30 minutes.
Why is it just cars what about the diesel trains stinking get out Birmingham New Street Station chokes you to death all the time. Also buses and lorries doing the same thing. It always come down to car owners. These electric cars are useless no charging points anywhere unless you use the motorway services points which are no good to everyone. I think they should scrap the idea of getting rid of diesel cars unless they do the same with all trains and all lorries at he the same time not just hit car owners AS ALWAYS NOT FAIR TO US AS PEOPLE.
the pollution problems are real and serious and mostly in densely populated areas.
The industry has to be forced to change technologies so you have to force a change in buying habits.
As per usual the government tell us to do something ie reduce taxation on diesels so we buy them, then tell us it’s wrong.
Incompetence with little foresight as to the overall effect of the environmental impact of such a blanket dictate.
This is happening again with the electric car, infrastructure for charging points, where is the money coming from to do this?
End of life recycling, not to mention the generation of electricity to charge all of these cars.
Idiots the lot of them.
By doing this they are forcing car manufactures into going in only one direction, as opposed to several ways at the moment.
By allowing manufactures time to look at other future fuels and technology they could end up with a fuel that is even better than the electric cars.
Or even spend the money instead of charging points and put it into public transport and infrastructure.
Instead of the haphazard private run public transport lottery we have now.
be the envy of the world!
I am not sure why fuel cells are not promoted and supported more. They have improved massively in recent years and can fill up in the same time as petrol and have a similar range.
I don’t recall either our government, or the French saying that all new cars had to be electric, just that they couldn’t be pure petrol or diesel.
And neither government has passed any laws to this effect, so far. So far all they have passed is some gas.
There are a lot of comments on here which just regurgitate what the papers and folk like the BBC are saying and it is all negative about Electric cars and renewable energy! The vast majority of it is lies as the oil industry and car manufacturers don’t want us to shift to Electric Cars as it will hit their profits, influence & control. Bear in mind that there are papers and politicians in the U.K. and even some scientists who are being bank rolled by oil & gas industry & car industry to lobby against electric cars and renewables. Think about the hit the oil industry & car industry will take if EVs become main stream? EVs need hardly any maintenance or servicing, just tyres and an MOT after 3 years from new, that will hit the current status quo hard. As for all the frankly Hysterical reactions RE the power grid and not having enough energy it’s complete nonsense. Many people will install solar panels and battery storage when they get an EV to charge them and at the same time hugely reduce their electricity bill. Also Electric cars can be used as a giant battery to supplement the national grid in times of peak demand via vehicle to grid technology. As for charging stations, we don’t need a massive network as cars are charged at home & 80% of people do no more than about 50 miles of travel per day. Add in cars like Teslas with over 300 miles of range and superchargers & it’s perfectly viable now to own and run an EV. Highly recommend watching Robert Llewelyn’s Fully Charged channel on YouTube for the truth about EVs and renewables.
Need more intelligent people from the motor industry like Carlos Tavares to speak out about the stupidity of governments specifying one type of vehicle over another. The ICE will be around after most of these idiot politicians are dead and gone. The electric car has a lot of drawbacks…..like wind turbines
What I have not seen any facts of is what life do the batteries have. What will it cost to replace them when they no longer hold a charge. Just like the battery in your phone it as to be replaced after a period of time and the more you use it the shorter is it’s life.
Electric cars can’t do long journeys on one charge, so longer journey times and inconvenience of finding charge point in unfamiliar locations.
Government keeps saying that the grid will struggle to supply electricity in years ahead due to old power stations.
I can just see it now, there will be companies selling extended battery trailers for cars on long journeys, just like you do with phones lol.
possibly. Or you have capacitors holding charge and doing the charging on the move.
anyhow hybrids will remain so it’s no big deal.
200 miles plus will be commonplace from next year, you should take a break after that distance anyway. Sat Nav directs you to charge points so they’re easy to find.
A massive generalisation Dee. Depends entirely on the car and the journey. Model 3 can handle 320km of real world range. Ranges are increasing every year.
Hydrogen fuel with electric motor to provide the drive is the future the technology is already available. Its fast to recharge and the waste product is water. But governments are muppets and are frightened of hydrogen gas because they think it is going to blow up. If correctly designed its supriseingly safe and can be made any where you have electricity and water even rain water will do.. The dreamers who think the current electric car is a good deal forget lithium is a no no and cobalt is a very limited metal. Elon Musk and his ideas will fail. The construction of his current electric car is seriously polluting with batteries that may only last five years and what do you do with them and what happens when lithium runs out. With the hydrogen car water will always be available and the sun will shine and the wind will blow to make electricity no pollution except from the tyres and the construction phase.
Hydrogen cannot be produced on an industrial scale by electrolysing water. It is made from carbon sources — natural gas, coal, LPG. It requires high temperatures, expensive catalysts, and overall efficiency is very low. The energy required for production, compression into cylinders, and cooling the product is all currently carbon-based too. It pretty much works like carbon capture technology, except the carbon is captured before it is used as fuel, not after. Go read Wikipedia articles “Hydrogen vehicle” and “Hydrogen production”.
I completely agree about Lithium. The main reserves are in the high Chilean deserts, and the extraction uses vast amounts of water and destroys the land completely through salination. Also, the current known reserves of Lithium are under 20 million tons, so there can only be maybe 200 million electric cars built. Best join the queue today.
ITM Power might disagree with your comments as they are progressing hydrogen refuelling in the UK, US and France. The UK Govt is supporting this with investment money.
They make what looks like a very nice piece of kit — and I do like neat engineering. It does indeed produce compressed hydrogen from water and electricity. It avoids transporting the product by making it at the point of use (with some local storage of the product), so it just needs power and water connected.
I wonder what they do with the oxygen. For every kg of hydrogen, they must also get 8kg of oxygen out.
It might be developed into a viable product, but at present the company and the technology have a bunch of issues and noted on their website and in their 2017 accounts:
.. The entry-level package is the size of a truck container, but can only refuel 5 cars per 24 hours.
.. They have not actually sold any commercial versions yet. Birmingham and Nottingham universities each have one, and Shell have a project using two, apparently all for evaluation.
.. In the whole financial year, they dispensed 1043 kg of hydrogen — only enough to fill 200 cars once each.
.. I can’t see any details of the power used, relative to the cost of carbon fuels, or compared to the power needed to charge an electric car..
I would truly like this to be viable, but I don’t see it scaling that well. Currently, 95% of production is using the “steam reforming” process.
Thanks for a balanced and well-argued answer. I still can’t quite understand why hydrogen re-fuelling doesn’t generate more and deeper examination of the case for and against when compared to the mass of information about EVs.
Some people might disagree with you on the water vapour front as it’s also a greenhouse gas.
Didn’t we have hydrogen buses in London a few years ago, whatever happened to them?
I genuinely hope hydrogen is not the future. I’d hate to lose the convenience and cost savings of home charging, just to go back to a system that requires me to make special trips to a specific location and pay through the nose for fuel. Though, I can understand why someone who has never experienced the convenience of EV driving would think it is.
Jimbo, Do you really beleive that home charging is going to be cheap? Take into consideration the cost of the Electricity you will use when using your charger and the ever increasing price rise of Electricity from the suppliers and I have no doubt that once the government of the day is informed that revenue from the vehicle taxation system has fallen from that expected, tax increases will follow very quickly.
I have a Vauxhall Ampera ERV car. 32 amp charge point at home works fantastic
no need to charge over night or stay at hotels while it charges, “these are myths”. Charges in less than 1 hour no waiting in petrol queues as it mainly runs on electric. I have been to a petrol station only twice since 10.01.2017. My car’s average mileage mpg is 105 up to now. No range problems at all 310 miles on petrol and up to 50 miles on electric charge. Quentin Wilson got up to 2000 miles on a tank of petrol in this very car so it is very good on fuel, me very happy I bought my car and would not change back to a old type car. Problems with batteries not for a very long time and when done it will still have enough power to light a 4 bed house as tested in America.
Those figures look wrong to me. 32 amps at 230 volts is a 7kW charger. That gives you about 30 miles for each hour of charging.
So for your (small) range of 50 miles, you would need 100 minutes of charge.
For the “over 200 miles” posts here, that is a seven-hour charge.
You can get a “rapid” domestic charger, but you have to get a 3-phase supply because it takes 100 amps.
I will believe we are making progress when I see government ministers plugging their official cars into lamp-posts in Parliament Square.
Absolutely right there Paul.Well said.
You’re assuming he uses all 50 miles of his range every day.
for most urban drivers that range is absolutely fine, it’s just folks don’t “trust” the product yet as being practical.
There are also significant advances coming in battery technology such as Lithium-oxygen (no I’m not an expert) which are said to have 5 x the energy density of current batteries (yes there will still be a metals shortage I guess).
Add in capacitor storage of charge (possibly) and things have a way to go in development.
Question is will it be cost effective. History says yes, manufacturers say no.
so 310 miles on petrol, 50 miles on electric. and it takes how long to charge? couple that to internal space (my personal car carries 4-5 suitcases and 5 adults with no issues, refuels from empty in 15 mins or so, and will cover 700 miles on a tank of fuel) so, as I’m not familiar with the ampere, could it do all of that, at the same time? mine has on numerous occasions, and no its not some huge limo with massive fuel tanks or a huge estate car, just a humble Ford Mondeo Hatchback
It won’t be long before someone trips over an electric charging cable and puts a claim in for injuries. These cables are dangerous as they just hang from the charging point to the car without any safety barrier [trailing leads-trip hazard]. You can bet H&S will ban the method that is adopted now at service stations and insist on vehicles being put into an enclosed booth.
Calm down! Instead of reading tabloid headlines, have a look through the actual announcement and please show me were it specifies electric cars. I can only see that the UK government plans to “end the sale of all new conventional petrol and diesel cars and vans by 2040” http://www.gov.uk/government/news/plan-for-roadside-no2-concentrations-published
And the Scottish government intends to “end the need for new petrol or diesel vehicles in Scotland by 2032” https://news.gov.scot/news/scotland-a-low-carbon-leader
OK, it does not specify electric cars. Just not petrol or diesel. So there are still plenty of other options to supply power:
Electric storage batteries.
Hydrogen storage cylinders.
A large bag of mains gas on the roof (worked in WWII).
A very long mains lead.
A wind turbine on the roof.
A sail or kite on the roof.
Horses/buffalo/oxen/asses (plenty of the last one around).
Small children in harnesses (worked in coalmines).
Compressed air storage.
A large flywheel storing mechanical energy.
The “Flintstones” option.
Wireless energy from under the road.
Moving cables under every road lane (works for San Francisco trams).
Electric cables above revery road lane (Blackpool trams, no overtaking).
Make everywhere downhill from everywhere else (revoke the laws regarding gravity).
See why it might just as well say “Electric cars” ?
it says “conventional petrol and diesel cars” which means hybrids will still be allowed. And there’s the answer, manufacturers will make different forms of hybrids.
Also it talks about limiting charging as a last resort. I think what will hurt is they are likely to put up the taxes on diesel substantially.
I know lets all use horse and carts and don’t venture more than one days ride from our village. A National NO diesel vehicles day in London NO taxis, lorries, trains, ambulances, fire engines, delivery vans. Lets see how long London lasts without. Replies please to The Mayor of London.
come on, do it properly. make it a week. better yet, a MONTH
Be careful of what you wish for.
Biggest killer in Victorian London on the roads wasn’t getting run over by the horse and cart it was slipping on the ’emissions’ and cracking your head on the pavement.
ICE is dead — end of story. Carlos Tavares had better wake up! Who remembers the cathode ray tube TV?
me. I still have a CRT tv
Me too. I am not ditching a perfectly adequate and perfectly working CRT tv set to watch the same trash on a current fashion accessory. All of those ‘must haves’ who extol the virtues of the most up to date gimmickry would serve themselves well by reading Lance Packard’s ‘Hidden Persuaders’.
Very well said Rodney ,,,there is no more space left in this room as it is full of elephants.
Me !
Hi,
Only yesterday I took my car in for a service, so had to get back home on public transport. Something I noticed whilst waiting for a bus; virtually every car
that passed had only a driver. Surely this is just ridiculous?
Why hasn’t some car manufacturer released a tiny one or at most two seater vehicle
at a price which would temp commuters to buy, along side the family saloon/SUV?
Something like a ‘Smart car’, but at a much cheaper price. It could be limited to a low speed, and so should be very cheap to run.
With modern technology it should be easy to implement, for some forward looking
manufacturer?
City cars are plentiful, not exactly huge.
The answer of course is to move some folks out of cars onto motorcycles. In theory just 1 in 10 making the switch would near eliminate congestion and its associated pollution (of course those calculations never work out in reality).
The move would be easy to do though.
Sign up to electric cars. Live the dream. Buy and commit to the efficient and low poluting cars. Ohhhhh hang on lve already done that with my modern diesel engine cars that now are being demonised. Dont think lm trusting the governments and so called experts with their advice on electric power. I dont know with this and Brexit doom n gloom l think l will just wait for Trump n kim jon un to drop the bomb. Wont have to worry anymore about the environment any more as it will be screwed. Life is such a bitch dont you think.
Whilst electric cars may seem to be an attractive option for those living in London, has any thought been given to us country dwellers. I have a 25 minute drive to the nearest supermarket and know, from having test driven an electric car, that the charge doesn’t last as long advertised.
How about long motorway journeys? Are we to see the hard shoulders used as car parks for cars needing to charge their batteries? Is this another case of our government not realising that there’s life outside London?
A holiday trip to, say, SW France would be a most interesting experience in an electric car!
Rodney, I’ve done it. Left home (Reading) early morning, drove down to Channel Tunnel, charged whilst waiting to board the train, then in France, stopped 4 times every two-three hours to have a quick break, grab a coffee / bite to eat and recharge the car.
I arrived at my destination in the Pyrenees in the evening.
900 miles in a day on my own.
Yes, I have a Tesla which is still relatively expensive, but it’s entirely possible today. And it will only get easier as time goes by and more investment is put into the charging infrastructure.
The idea that it will be easier is laughable. How do you intend to charge all those cars waiting for the ferry? There will rarely be enough charge points and available ones at the places needed.
Hybrids are the only way to make this work for the masses but a switch from today’s design to a generator powered electric drivetrain.
There are interesting battery innovations coming (eg lithium oxygen designs) although it’s still doubtful there’s enough of the minerals to meet global needs.
Using capacitors for storage is an interesting idea too, there must be a reason it’s not talked about I guess. But you have very fast charge and if you regulate it’s discharge perhaps it can be a portable “powerbank”. I thought someone had suggested it for mobile phones.
Why is no-one considering the merits of hydrogen refuelling in the EV?combustion debate?
They are, hydrogen cell motive power, but the technology cost effectiveness is dubious and the support infrastructure is light years away. As I commented previously, it’s a case of ignorant politicians believing in and promoting vested interests hype for perceived populist political expediencies. We are unfortunately governed by foolish people who are of limited intellect and the vision of whom is limited to their next run of elections.
govts are perfectly aware of what they are doing. Mass fleet replacement is good for their economic numbers and they can also claim to help population dense areas.
Manufacturers may complain (some of them), but it helps them replace cars earlier too.
As usual politicians living in cloud cuckoo land!
I was encouraged to buy a diesel under Labour in 2001. It had one big advantage up to 50 mpg. Since it has been bellyaching and inaction. I mean political drift by not charging higher road tax in cities for 4-wheel drives in cities. They take up more room, are driven badly and pollute most on school runs. Think about it: these vehicles are difficult to manoeuvre, take more space when parked and they seem to erroneously imbue status to mentally deficient social climbers.
The answer is simple, charge higher duties in urban areas, and road tax so we who drive more efficiently in rural areas do not get blamed.
As for compensation to exchange cars, the whole thing is not thought out. £1500 would not allow me to change my car, but £15,000 might. There is no appreciation of the poverty poorer drivers suffer. Otherwise like the Labour scheme it just helped out the middle-classes who could afford to change cars anyway. What is new? Labour also saved the value of shares for the owners of the Banks.
charges are introduced for city centres for that very reason – it’s zone 1 in london where public transport and taxis are plentiful. But population density is a big problem – many do suffer breathing problems – so a change in buying habits will help hugely in a relatively short space of time.
The changes are due in 23 years time – what are you moaning about? Is your car going to last 23 years longer?
As happens far too often, we have the grave danger of technically ill equipped politicians being influenced to make technological decisions for politically expedient popularity. The vast majority of politicians, who are generally from law or finance backgrounds, or even worse, are career politicians who have never had anything resembling a normal job, have no engineering or technical expertise whatsoever and rely solely upon advise from those who set up themselves to be ‘expert’ in a specific field. Those ‘experts’ may be genuinely proficient and competent in their field, but they may equally be dubious charlatans who are influenced by vested interests and those who are funding their studies and research. The end result of that is that major governmental technology policies are imposed upon the hapless masses based upon deeply flawed evidence, not to mention that alternative solutions may deliberately not be adequately examined because of preconceived prejudices. Politicians have historically and all to commonly imposed bad decisions and policies based upon weak arguments for no better purpose than their short term perceptions of those policies serving best their populist political expediencies at any given time. The decisions now being made in respect of the types of motive power to be adapted to our future motor vehicles are no less vulnerable to such bad policies being imposed.
There is that other point of course, that connected with the UK government policy now being promoted to stop all petrol and diesel vehicle productions by 2040. The comedy of that is that by 2040 our roads will be so congested that for many of us the motorcar, electric powered or otherwise, will have come a mere status show-off to the neighbours ornament to be sat on ones drive to be washed an polished each week because to set off to go anywhere in the blessed thing will have become a totally pointless activity.
well, the 2040 changes allow for hybrids so why everyone talks about EV only is beyond me.
As for the politicians, the more cars that are sold the better “GDP” looks – most purchases are via financing (ie debt), and they can boast about “growing the economy”.
Introducing major changes to vehicles means an accelerated replacement of the country’s fleet – hey look, the govt have grown the economy again and the corporates are happy too! What wonderful people, lets vote them in again.
Hybrid is the way forward at this moment.
Hybrid has been shown to be a big con-trick, albeit the RFL has, at last caught up with that
which may well develop into generator driven electric drivetrains. Generators are far simpler and smaller and should be a lot more efficient and should also remove a big chunk of the battery problem.
Fuel isn’t about to disappear and the changes in 2040 specifically allow hybrids. Today in the US you can buy big gas guzzling units with a hair dryer attached and a nice friendly “hybrid” label on it. It’s a great sales tool.
Hopefully in the future it will be somewhat meaningful.
I just said the same in the previous article Who advises the Government ???
re “Electric vehicles cost more than their petrol or diesel equivalents, meaning that fewer people could be able to afford a car in future. This is a much wider social issue and one that should be open for discussion.” The real social issue is that Governments have neglected to invest in walking, cycling and public transport, such that the majority of people feel compelled to travel by car. In any case, we need less traffic on the roads regardless of fuel type, so maybes more expensive compulsory electric cars are a good thing?
Yes, because even though the prices of electric cars have been tumbling for the last five years, they’re now just going to suddenly stop getting cheaper. And of course, there is no second hand market. Those greedy EV owners just keep their cars forever and never sell them.
Has anybody thought how taxis are going to operate with electric cars
Yes. They’ll have drivers in them who will “drive” the taxi to your location. You’ll then get inside and the driver will “drive” you to your destination. When you get there, you’ll give the taxi driver money and get out of the vehicle and s/he will move on to the next customer.
Hope this helps.
In the late 1980’s in Rotterdam it was proved that electric cars fitted with solar panels would satisfy all requirements for 90% of drivers, this was suppressed because of the agreements between Government’s and the oil companies. Exhaust emission data is also false to protect the industry but consider this for each litre of fuel burnt a litre of water is produced plus other harmful chemicals.
Since when is water a harmful chemical? Rotterdam is full of it — they call it “canals”. It even falls from the sky.
The good people of Rotterdam are pulling your leg. Or maybe they cycle everywhere, and just have cars to annoy the neighbours.
Charging from the mains for a 200-mile range takes 7kW for about 6 hours.
The most solar panel I could cram onto my Volvo estate roof would be about 3 square metres, and that would generate 500 watts in direct sun. Getting the equivalent charge to the mains system would take 84 daylight hours, which is a whole week even in summer.
If you garage your car, or have to use an underground or multistorey carpark, no power.
Why are governments silent over hydrogen powered vehicle’s? We currently have a shortage of electricity seems crazy to push this option. Not surprised, it is the group that is negotiating Brexit.
Hydrogen uses more electricity, not less. Renewable Hydrogen is created by electrolysis. When used in fuel cell vehicles, it is not an energy source, it’s a very inefficient energy storage system.
And what about Hydrogen? Fuel cells, or even a direct conversion.
If we’re pouring money and recourses into Batteries that need charging and pollute! Why not Hydrogen? You only need Electricity and Water to produce it, and it’s less dangerous than Petrol! If we need Electricity to produce battery power, why not use Hydrogen instead?
Has anyone thought about how taxis will be able to operate with electric cars
Hydrogen cars anyone?
simply not practical for commercial production I believe.
Well said, Brian. About 46% of our electricity comes from burning gas, 31% from burning coal. 60% of that coal is imported from abroad, some of it travelling 2500 miles. Approx. 14% of our electricity is from nuclear sources, and we all know the environmental price of dumping highly radioactive waste, not to mention other safety issues. so much for non-polluting electric cars. And our government has damaged the car industry with its announcement to ban all diesels in the near future………The usual lazy thinking of politicians
It would seem that most contributers are saying the same thing. We are not ready for this and the total cost (environmental, financial, social etc.) is yet to be considered fully. The data needed for such a proper consideration is only available in part and those that have any data need to be invited to contibute. Of course any contibution and debate should be with out bias and objective with a willingness to accept that we just might not have all the answers and may even be wrong. A touch of humility goes a long way in developing new ideas and technologies.
you really think they care what we say? I admire your naivety, I wish I had it.
The latest moves to EV are a typical knee-jerk badly thought through, very rushed “we must be seen to do something”. Or maybe they just think that making cars expensive will reduce the cars on the road and save them having to do any real planning.
Has anyone estimated the costs of the dramatic increase in the divorce rate that “emergency overnight charging” will bring? Or will wives happily accept such a feeble excuse.
What a load of nonsense. The changes from 2040 allow for hybrids, not just EVs. So the combustion engine may be replaced with a generator plus an electric drivetrain.
What is this bloke talking about?
Well as always with goverments when minerstes get involved with tech problems eg IT for dwp and health service upgrade
Child surport agency farce was at best meddled with by none tech goverment persons in meeting after meeting with add on we can do this as well . Without any idea how it might be done or if it could be intergrated into exsisting inferstucter .
Here we go again power grid nearly at full capacity no roadside charging points to speak of .
Most familys have 2 cars and a lot of older homes dont even have a space out the front of homes for off road parking so how do they charge cars cables over the payment.
63 rd point lol
Most electric car charging units for home use are wired into a 32 amp circuit breaker as current draw is as much as a cooker or a
a shower so in the standed home most of the uk it leaves 31 amps for home use. So have a cooker on or shower and your at main fuse level capacity . Without the rest of the family use.
Ah what about the 2nd car that needs to be charge .
2 x 32 charges are on limit of main fuse.
Put larger fuse in you say ….no not much of a choice as if all the street are charging at same time the cable up the street and sub station are not big enough. By a long way off…… when fitted it was done useing a expected load plus known average use and a load balacing factor befoe electric cars was an option en mass.
So cables in every street need upgrading sub stations and cables to homes.
Thats why we have this smart meter tech being rolled out so they can use just in time tariff charging at peak times still not working yet
Regards all
Oh sorry most homes are on a 63 amp main fuse
All I know is that amp stands for amperes. I suspect you are implying that most homes cannot recharge a car battery. Why not spell it out?
I had a post removed thats why above comment makes no sense
Depends how rural you are. On a long overhead line shared with several other people, you might only be allowed 40 amps. In a new estate, maybe 100 amps. And your charger might want 70 or 80 amps.
However, supply companies rely on a “diversity factor” — i.e. praying that different houses take showers, boil kettles etc at random times that are unlikely to overlap. Overnight charging takes hours, so they are all likely to be on at once.
Your whole street probably has a 400 amps fuse at the supply end, so the sixth recharger takes the whole street out (even those without electric cars).
I think this is quite a negative and short-sighted argument. the rise of electric cars will only be a success if we have a greater level of energy in the grid and cheap electricity. So electrics cars can take up the unwanted energy, such as at night or excess from renewable energy during the daytime.
Electric cars are the future, its this transition period that will be painful for some.
Clive, you are absolutely right. What many don’t realise is that we are looking at a completely new model for energy generation and storage. Clearly, 100% electric car ownership would not work with the present infrastructure but that will change.
As the price of electric vehicles falls and the range increases people will find that their views toward petrol and diesel vehicles changes quicker than they imagine and they will consider them old-fashioned and dirty. When the Tesla Model 3 arrives next year, new car buyers will have the option of buying an electric car that is an attractive alternative to similarly priced petrol and diesel models.
I must say a work colleague bought a Tesla 3 years ago and loves it. He says he will never go back to an ICE and had just bought a new Tesla for his wife. He says it takes a little planning for a long journey however he has a good map / app telling him the charging points and wether they are fast charge or not. He says there are already quite a number of charge stations and growing at 10 per week. I guess it’s ok for him now as not so many people have EV’s to clog up the filling stations, if we go all electric there may be queues.
I do agree with the comment about it only being as green as the electric generation and the fact that the government should just say what the emissions should be, not dictate the cars must be electric.
Yes but ?!….who is going to organise the massive structural changes required to the grid etc.Oh yes,I forgot…the government of course.The same crew who are STILL promising high speed broadband for everyone by 2016.Or, who spend money like it is going out of fashion on wonderful aircraft carriers that there are no aircraft or crew for…and please don’t forget Brexit, as if we could ?!
Tavares was the man who put the PSA Hybrid Air system on hold due to a lack of interest from other companies and the huge engineering cost. I haven’t heard of this system being brought back online!
Why can’t governments dictate that all vehicles must have zero harmful emissions, leaving the industry to develop whatever technologies meet that requirement?
But there is no such thing as zero harmful emissions, certainly in the foreseeable future. Renewable electricity sources are pretty good, but not nearly enough so you have to burn fossil fuels to generate the power in inefficient power stations and then transmit it down inefficient networks which aren’t up to the job anyway as EVs increase. Those combined inefficiencies exceed those of IC engines even ignoring the environmental issues with the batteries themselves, meaning that there is arguably a greater, more sustainable, future for hybrid cars than electric ones.
Solar roof glass tiles are already in the foreseeable future. They’ll be standard in new house builds and will actually be cheaper to lay than standard roofs. Surplus will go the grid for the small number of properties that are not suitable.
If we are all going to have overnight charging, then there is not going to be a whole lot of surplus solar power around that can be used.
I spent 4 years on contract with a UK electricity distribution company. My job was to collect data and make forecasts of power usage based on official projections (central and local government). This was to be used for costing reinforcement of the distribution network (everything below national grid level) and all the companies had to do it. The idea was to quantify and cost the upgrades needed from now to 2038 in seven year jumps.
The process was pitiful. Most of the local authorities came up with the same %age estimates because they collaborated (i.e. cheated). Most of the central government figures were blind guesswork. Example: how many electric vehicles will there be in the UK by 2021? Exactly one million. That must have taken all of ten seconds to decide. The whole process was entirely pointless.
Several big issues did come up:
(a) The whole electrical system is already running close to capacity, such that large companies are being bribed to accept short-notice shut-downs so that the public (i.e. voters) don’t see power cuts.
(b) At a local level, something over 30% of consumers are on a different supply cable to what records say they are, so all the statistics are invalid anyway.
(c) The electrical system was designed to send power outwards. It can’t accept net infeeds from local generation like solar and wind turbines, because all the voltage control and safety protection mechanisms are unstable in the backfeed direction.
Don’t worry about your household supply not being able to handle your recharge. If there are more than 6 electric cars in your street, you will blow the feed from your local transformer and everybody will be in the dark together.
Well said,and at last someone who knows what they are talking about.It is a shame that the government does not have people like you to inform them before they make these ridiculous decisions just to cover their backsides.
Herr Kiss,
That would be why they fired me. They couldn’t argue with my statistics, but they couldn’t accept my conclusions either.
well, that’s how the banks worked is it not? they didn’t like what their risk managers were telling them so they fired them, hired outside consultants and got the answers they wanted.
Then when it went belly up, called up gordon brown and said “what are you going to do about it?”
So you go on about how everybody guessed at figures then you guess at the last figure. 6 cars in a street will blow the supply? How big is this street? what rate are the cars charging? How far away is the transformer? How old is the transformer? I could go on but then your sweeping statement will make even less sense.
I live in a house built in 1889, there are 3 electric cars in the street we are coping, the 10 500w street light bulbs have just been changed to LED’s and I only charge my electric toothbrush on monday mornings. No need for scaremongering with guesses.
No guesswork involved, David. I worked on data analysis in the electrical industry for 30 years, including at the National Grid control centre. And it doesn’t matter how long the street is.
Almost all domestic distribution networks are built from 3-phase underground XPLE-insulated aluminium cables laid direct in the soil. This stuff only carries 400A from the local 11kV/430V transformers, and one cable will usually service all the houses down one side of a street. Each phase is protected by a 400A fuse at the transformer end to protect against overcurrent — either a fault, somebody digging it up, or just cumulative load. In areas with sandy soil, the cable will overheat more because the soil is a better insulator, and these are often fused at 300A. The cables run from transformer to transformer, but they are always left open circuit at one end to avoid circulating currents between the 11kV supplies. So one side of your street can only have 400A shared between all the properties in it.
My house can use well over 100 amps at once. I can have a shower (40A) while my wife cooks a meal (30A for 3 rings and an oven), puts on the washing (15A), the dishwasher (15A) and boils a kettle (10A). And then she runs a bath and the immerser kicks in (15A). That’s 125 amps. It should blow the house fuse (100A or 80A) but we get away with it, mainly because there are thermostats clicking in and out at different times, and the shower, washing machine, dishwasher and immerser all have short heating cycles that are unlikely to overlap.
— continued —
The same problem arises at street level. The average 24/7 domestic demand is around 6 amps. But that can only average over a fairly large number of houses. If 20 people get up exactly at 7am and go in an electric shower, that’s 800 amps. The whole system relies on “diversity” — that people do not synchronise their lives, and there is enough randomness to avoid the worse peaks.
This happens at a national level too. The Grid has an area in the control room that continually shows TV — news, sports, etc. They arrange extra generation on standby for the intervals and ends of events like major football matches, finals for Strictly, election results, Wimbledon. They know that ten million kettles will go on at once. They also monitor for breaking news that may mess up all their plans. If Princess Di had died at tea-time instead of overnight, we would have had major power cuts across the UK, maybe lost the whole system for several hours.
Incidentally, the Grid has been continuously running since 1924, with equipment added over the years. It is conceivable that it could in fact all be taken down by a single event — the USA had a cut in 2003 that affected 55 million people. Europe had one in 2006 that spread as far as Poland, Portugal, Greece and Morocco. There is a simulator that is used to eveluate how you do a “Black Start” on the UK Grid. To date, nobody has ever succeeded in getting the system back up under that simulation. The Grid is stable only as a complete unit — each section depends on something else already being running.
The issue with demand for night storage heaters and electric car chargers is that it has no diversity. You plug it in, and the demand is there for six hours continuously, until the concrete blocks are all hot or the battery voltage reaches the cut-off point. The standard car charger is rated at 7.7kW, which at 230V is 33.5 amps. Even if you can persuade your neighbours to get up at 2am to plug theirs in, there will still be long periods of complete overlap. And meanwhile, the usual background demands are still in there.
You are supposed to be buying washing machines that can turn themselves on at night to avoid peaks in daytime demand. You are supposed to have a smart meter that can negotiate with other houses in your street to flatten demand too. It is going to be like waiting for a shower in the gym, but without the backchat. Meanwhile, under every street, there is a bunch of equipment that was designed and build 50 years ago to meet the demands of an entirely different technological lifestyle. Suddenly adding a demand that can replace the entire output of the petrochemical industry is a ridiculous requirement.
Eggsactly lith batteries are not zero emission to make or dispose. And costs 5 times new value to tecycle them. Tavares is no mug. And Li is only good for 5 years then capacity around 50% after 10 years capacity 10% if it works at all.
It has been demonstrated that Tesla batteries (in cars) have lasted over 400k miles with 93% charge still available. (see http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-400k-km-250k-mi-7-percent-battery-degradation/)
Oh, and there is a 10-year warranty.
No, sorry, the latest generation of Li batteries can go about 1000 charge/discharge cycles before dropping to about 80% of their capacity. This could equate to 10-15 years and the battery would still be eminently useable. Many already have an 8 year guarantee on them, so the manufacturers are quite happy that their life will probably be considerably more.
You’re thinking of phone batteries Step. Those in cars are much more advanced and expected to last 15 years at least. 400,000kms been seen in Teslas to only reduce usable charge by 7%
Because we don’t live in a dictorial country we say they do the last time I looked. That the problem with this country it ran by idiots.
The Muppet’s in power think no further than the next sound bite. The carbon footprint of an electric car must be far higher than any conventional car made at the moment.
As long as we don’t see any damage done to the environment in this country then it’s OK. The next place to be completely trashed is the oceans. To get the various metals in sufficient quantities for the batteries and all the other technical bits, they are thinking we will have to mine the oceans to get sufficient quantities of rare earth metals, so that’s them gone for a Burton and all the creatures in them. Much better to kill the human race off who are causing the problem with emissions in the first place, than killing the oceans and the surface of the world mining rare metals to make sodding batteries that last 8-10 years then pollute the World by scrapping them.
As for the Grid it’s creaking as it is, with the dash away from coal (which we sit on hundreds of years of supplies), industry will have to shut down to divert the power to charge the cars we will be using and the batteries used by the grid to store backup power to use at night and when high pressure is sitting over Britain in the winter months, when we get no wind and weak sunlight.
Batteries are about, I believe 1/3 of the cost of electric cars, so instead of keeping cars going for 15-20 years, people will decide to scrap the car after 8 years because the price of a new battery is so high it’s not worth keeping the car, just like we do with mobile phones and other consumables, nothing is worth repairing these days (built in obsolescence), so it’s made again to add to the mess we’re making.
. I could rant on for hours about the whole thing because it all absolutely crazy.
From where do you get your “facts”?
The metals required for the current generation of batteries need mining, yes, but there is little difference between this and the continued extraction of oil throughout the life of the car. The next generation may well use glass.
Lithium is not a “rare earth metal”.
There are already Teslas that have done more than 200,000 miles and the current estimate is that their batteries will be down too about 80% of their capacity after 1000 charging cycles, about 250,000 miles, about 20 years at 12,000 miles a year. 80% is still useable and the batteries can be recycled, unlike the burnt petrol or diesel.
We do sit on large coal reserves (probably) but we aren’t mining them any more because they are so polluting when burnt.
With the widespread adoption of wind, solar and possibly tidal power generation with local storage the strain on the grid isn’t going to be anything like as bad.
I agree that high pressure in winter often means little wind, but it also means clear skies and this maximises the solar available.
Batteries will easily outlive your average ICE car. 400,000kms have been reported to only reduce usable power by 7% on one person’s Tesla over 3 years so 15 years with normal usage should be achievable. At the end of the this batteries are easily recyclable.
The I3 has a low carbon footprint as a lot of the materials are recycled and it is put together in Leipzig at a factory totally powered by wind.
Finally suggest you read up about Lithium as it is abundant on earth 🙂
A “person” did 400,000 kms in 3 years? I make that an average of 83,000 miles per year. So that’s 360 miles every working day, 6 hours at 60mph.
That’s not a “person”. That’s a Tesla test, under carefully controlled conditions, probably on a smooth level test track under closely monitored conditions, with a highly optimised recharging strategy.
The Leipzig factory might be powered by wind (more likely hot air), but its raw materials are mined in places like the Atacama Desert, using the biggest diesel trucks you ever saw, and diesel draglines, and diesel pumps for the saline solution that dissolves the lithium salts and sterilises the soil forever. Lithium is rare and evil.
As for “abundant” lithium, if you divide known reserves of 20 million tons amongst 8 billion people, we get 2.5 kilograms each. What do you plan to do with yours?
Paul, it was a Finnish taxi driver called Ari Nyyssönen that covered those miles and there is estimated to be just over a billion cars in the world – your assumption that every person (including children) has a car is a bit off. More reserves will be uncovered in future as in years gone by, it wasn’t economically viable but now the demand is there 😉
abundant, yes, but very difficult to extract without huge diesel earth moving equipment etc.
and as for 400,000kms, that may be fine in a CAR. not much use in goods vehicles (ive been driving vans for years and 700 miles in a DAY isn’t unheard of for me, to allow me to make a living, I HAVE to)
Where are the combined stakeholder meetings to back up these governmental decisions .
Like most of these statements from government they seem to have very little planning and consideration of the consequences.
Rather than prescriptive technology an objective to achieve zero emissions by an agreed date after in depth investigation would be more believable.